Replacing aging club Grobs...best options?

On Wed, 26 May 2021 09:43:14 +0100, Nick Hill wrote:

We did have a 1001 Club on site for a weekend and pilots who were
familiar with the 505 all noted that the approach control on the 1001
Club was uneventful compared to the 505. In fact it was very noticable
that when all levels of club pilot including pre-solo flew it we did not
have a single heavy arrival and most commented how easy it was to do a
nice smooth held off landing.

I've only flown a DG-1000 once, but thought it was easy to fly and land,
and very manoeverable one I got used to its size and weight, but getting
in and out of it wasn't easy - rather like an ASH-25.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

On 26/05/2021 10:42, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Wed, 26 May 2021 09:43:14 +0100, Nick Hill wrote:

I've only flown a DG-1000 once, but thought it was easy to fly and land,
and very manoeverable one I got used to its size and weight, but getting
in and out of it wasn't easy - rather like an ASH-25.


The DG1001 with the high undercarriage is like that. The Club has an
undercarriage like the K21 and is as easy to get in/out of.

The Club Neo trainer with the new 18m winglets is noticabley improved
handling so not to be compared with the original in terms of behaviour
as a trainer.
--

Nick Hill

Great information here! Anyone out there have experience with and comments on the PW-6?

Cheers,
Jim J6

On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 6:21:52 AM UTC-4, Nick Hill wrote:
On 26/05/2021 10:42, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Wed, 26 May 2021 09:43:14 +0100, Nick Hill wrote:

I've only flown a DG-1000 once, but thought it was easy to fly and land,
and very manoeverable one I got used to its size and weight, but getting
in and out of it wasn't easy - rather like an ASH-25.


The DG1001 with the high undercarriage is like that. The Club has an
undercarriage like the K21 and is as easy to get in/out of.

The Club Neo trainer with the new 18m winglets is noticabley improved
handling so not to be compared with the original in terms of behaviour
as a trainer.
--

Nick Hill

On Wednesday, 26 May 2021 at 13:02:20 UTC+1, Airport Bum wrote:
Great information here! Anyone out there have experience with and comments on the PW-6?

I have 254 hours (1417 flights) in a PW6U, all instructing, between 2009 and 2013. All but a couple of flights were from winch launches. The one that I flew was a fairly early model.

It was a very pleasant glider to fly, with light and well-harmonised controls, and no vices. It was very quiet (a blessing when instructing) and pupils liked it too!

The rear cockpit was not large, even for my modest height of 1.8m (5ft11in), and it was easy to have contact between parachute and rearward-hinging rear canopy while climbing in. The rear cockpit was also not well suited for instructing on lengthy flights, as there was no comfortable place to put one's feet when not on the pedals.

It spun (spinned? span?) well on demand, even with pilots near the top of the weight range, which was 110kg (242lb) per seat. Spin recovery was fine, nothing tricky about its spinning behaviour. Demonstration of spin reversal was also straightforward (and quite fun!), unlike any other training 2-seater which I have flown. (Although I _did_ once just manage to demonstrate reversal in a Ka13, to a doubting Thomas. But he was right on the lower weight limit for the front seat.)

Cheers, James.

On Monday, May 24, 2021 at 12:56:54 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Hello all! I am trying to gather information on replacement options for my club's aging Grobs. So far I have reached out to SZD for the SZD-54-2 (probably not a factor with no US certification or dealer), the HpH Twin Shark, Shempp-Hirth Duo Discus XL, Schleicher for the ASK-21B and DG for the DG1001 Club Neo.

The club prime purpose for this new glider(s) would be a combination of basic flight training, advanced training (beyond Private) and club member dual cross-country flying. A 40:1 or better best L/D would be preferred, for cross-country training. While many of the options listed are at the upper end of the price range, I need to add more in the lower/middle range.

Any recommendations on other options I have not considered? How are other clubs approaching this common problem? Thanks,

Mark

Mark - if you can lay your hands onto a straight DG500 (18m wing w/o winglets or extensions, retractable gear), I would give it a serious consideration. I flew one of them here in SC for a bit and found it to be a very well behaved and pleasant to fly glider without any bad habits.

Uli
'AS'

On Monday, May 24, 2021 at 9:56:54 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Hello all! I am trying to gather information on replacement options for my club's aging Grobs. So far I have reached out to SZD for the SZD-54-2 (probably not a factor with no US certification or dealer), the HpH Twin Shark, Shempp-Hirth Duo Discus XL, Schleicher for the ASK-21B and DG for the DG1001 Club Neo.

The club prime purpose for this new glider(s) would be a combination of basic flight training, advanced training (beyond Private) and club member dual cross-country flying. A 40:1 or better best L/D would be preferred, for cross-country training. While many of the options listed are at the upper end of the price range, I need to add more in the lower/middle range.

Any recommendations on other options I have not considered? How are other clubs approaching this common problem? Thanks,

Mark
Perhaps not the most popular idea, but how about a 2-33 as a trainer, and a two place glass bird as a glass transition/xc bird. Both the Dou and 505 are outstanding birds, but if the price
is too high for the budget, consider a Janus. I have seen many Janus'at a reasonable prices in Europe. Full disclosure I have flown Dou, 505 and Janus on xc flights. While the Janus is a bit more difficult to fly than the Dou or 505.

Best of luck and keep them fly'n

I have imported to the USA 7 of the 17 referred to by 2G
over the last several years. All, save one, have been sold.
We are working on licensing that last one. There is the
possibility of importing more from Europe, but the market
here has been sort of stagnant in the last couple of years.
No buyers around until a 2-seater gets crashed. Then they
need a replacement and start looking around, only to find
out there's not much available to suit their needs and
pocketbooks. The Blanik L-13 wing spar A.D. created a
vacuum in the lower cost trainer spectrum. Operators have
largely filled that void now, so the market appears close to
equilibrium at present.

Mike Opitz
RO

John, I'm sending you a PM about availability.
RO
Thanks. So I'm assuming one would need to pursue current owners to see if they would consider selling, as I dont' see any currently for sale on W&W (a number of Twin IIs , but no Twin 1s).

On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 10:20:53 PM UTC-4, wrote:
I have imported to the USA 7 of the 17 referred to by 2G
over the last several years. All, save one, have been sold.
We are working on licensing that last one. There is the
possibility of importing more from Europe, but the market
here has been sort of stagnant in the last couple of years.
No buyers around until a 2-seater gets crashed. Then they
need a replacement and start looking around, only to find
out there's not much available to suit their needs and
pocketbooks. The Blanik L-13 wing spar A.D. created a
vacuum in the lower cost trainer spectrum. Operators have
largely filled that void now, so the market appears close to
equilibrium at present.

Mike Opitz
RO

John, I'm sending you a PM about availability.
RO
Thanks. So I'm assuming one would need to pursue current owners to see if they would consider selling, as I dont' see any currently for sale on W&W (a number of Twin IIs , but no Twin 1s).

If you are not afraid of dealing with the authorities on both sides of the pond and a shipping broker in between, take a look he https://www.segelflug.de/osclass/ind...&sCategory=140
Some trainers there to pick from.

Uli
'AS'

On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 10:12:34 PM UTC-6, AS wrote:
On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 10:20:53 PM UTC-4, wrote:
I have imported to the USA 7 of the 17 referred to by 2G
over the last several years. All, save one, have been sold.
We are working on licensing that last one. There is the
possibility of importing more from Europe, but the market
here has been sort of stagnant in the last couple of years.
No buyers around until a 2-seater gets crashed. Then they
need a replacement and start looking around, only to find
out there's not much available to suit their needs and
pocketbooks. The Blanik L-13 wing spar A.D. created a
vacuum in the lower cost trainer spectrum. Operators have
largely filled that void now, so the market appears close to
equilibrium at present.

Mike Opitz
RO

John, I'm sending you a PM about availability.
RO
Thanks. So I'm assuming one would need to pursue current owners to see if they would consider selling, as I dont' see any currently for sale on W&W (a number of Twin IIs , but no Twin 1s).
If you are not afraid of dealing with the authorities on both sides of the pond and a shipping broker in between, take a look he https://www.segelflug.de/osclass/ind...&sCategory=140
Some trainers there to pick from.

Uli
'AS'
Yep. Thanks. I was just looking at that. Even in Europe, it seems there is precious little available in glass trainers for under $40k, let alone under $25k. Maybe if we just wait long enough, enough glider pilots will die off or age out, and enough clubs will fold up, and the popularity of soaring will drop enough, that those glass trainers will be so hard to get rid of that the prices will drop (assuming they are not crashed or damaged during this wait). I'm not holding my breath though.

The Twin 1 is available with a retractable gear or as a trainer version (fixed gear, no water ballast). The RG version suffers from too large geardoors which are torn off easily in outlandings. Although the gear is fixed, the trainer version also has the box for retracting the gear in the fuselage.

The Twin 1 has slightly better performance than the II (which is already better than the ASK21) and a higher payload. But it's heavy on the controls and the backseat is quite uncomfortable. There's also a noteable lack of control harmony compared to other glass gliders. These are the main reason for their low price. We sold it after a few years and nobody really missed it. In my view, if you get a Twin II with reasonable payload, it's a much better choice.

As for the single-seat Grob gliders, there's also a technical note on applying turbulator tapes on Twin 1 and 2 wings. It improves handling in thermals, but doesn't help with the lack of harmony and stiff controls on the Twin 1.