Swift Boat Veterans For Truth: Are They Going To Sink John Kerry?

Michael Wise wrote:

Bush visited a lot of places (all of which coincidentally supported him)
during his campaign and after his entry into office...but yet couldn't
find the time to visit the largest city and the financial capitol of
this country (NYC) until after it was attacked.

What a joke. I'm not sure if you've noticed, but this country is fairly large.
If Bush had taken time to visit all the places you want him to, you would have
claimed he was neglecting his duties at the White House. Furthermore, not
visiting and ignoring are entirely different matters. The inverse is also true.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

David Lesher wrote:

Feb. 28, 1969: ON THE DONG CUNG RIVER
Anti-Kerry vets not there that day

By William B. Rood
Chicago Tribune
Published August 21, 2004

snip

Great. Now all we need to hear from is Kerry and we can decide who is telling
the truth. Why would this man's story sway anyone? Why is Kerry calling other
people to tell their side of the story while avoiding doing the same himself?
Personally I don't care what happened on a river in SE Asia 35 years ago, I
don't find it relevent to the election, but what I do find relevent is Kerry's
evasive actions and already proven lies (Cambodia for Christmas).


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

David Fritzinger wrote:

Same thing happened in 2002 in
the Georgia Senate race.

Bush was running for Senator in Georgia?


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

In article ,
(BUFDRVR) wrote:

Bush visited a lot of places (all of which coincidentally supported him)
during his campaign and after his entry into office...but yet couldn't
find the time to visit the largest city and the financial capitol of
this country (NYC) until after it was attacked.

What a joke. I'm not sure if you've noticed, but this country is fairly
large.
If Bush had taken time to visit all the places you want him to, you would
have
claimed he was neglecting his duties at the White House.


We don't need that to make that claim true. Nobody is saying he should
visit everywhere...but don't you find it odd for a sitting president to
not make even a short stop in the LARGEST city of the country he is
stewarding? We're not talking Topeka here. He also rarely comes to the
largest state in his country and has never set foot in SF.

We've seen the pattern from Day 1: he snubs the areas of the country
which voted against him. A president needs to rise above juvenile
pettiness and represent everybody....not just the people who think he's
not an idiot.


--Mike

In article ,
(BUFDRVR) wrote:

No, he was aware of it when he was awarded it...it just didn't make sense
to
him.


Really? And where do you get this conclusion from?

From an ABC radio interview. He was asked about the citation claiming enemy
fire and he stated he was surprised by that since there was no enemy fire.

And he said in an interview 2-3 days ago (I'm sorry, but I can't
remember the source) that he always thought he had received the Bronze
Star for saving the mined boat and that he did not know the citation (as
well as the post op reports) stated that he had done so under fire.

He's claiming the whole under fire thing for his citation is a current
surprise to him, that he disagrees with it, and that if the wording is
in fact true...he doesn't deserve that Bronze Star.


This seems in stark contrast to what he claims in your account of ABC
interview where he claims he knew the citation said he was under fire
and just "shrugged" it off.


One Mr. Thurlow is lying, as both accounts cannot simultaneously be true.


In an interview with the Washington Post this week, Mr. Thurlow stated
he had received the award "for helping to rescue the boat that was
mined."

The issue isn't what the award was given for, but the circumstances involved.
Enemy fire is not required to receive a Bronze Star.


Didn't say it was...but Mr. Thurlow's citation for his Bronze Star
states he was under fire (as do the post op reports). Being the senior
officer on scene, he must surely have been aware of that. And if he
wasn't then, he would have when his award citation was read.



You and I have both served and am sure both have medals. Mine are
nothing to write home to mom about, but I do know that when I was
awarded them, I was verbally informed of why I was getting them

Me too, however I was not forewarned of the citation text.


Neither was I, but it was still verbalized none the less. How is it Mr.
Thurlow missed the repeated instances of "under enemy fire" in his
citation?



why is it now unrelated?

I guess the same question could also be put the DNC. 12 years ago Kerry
himself
stated that Clinton's actions during the war were not relevent to the
Presidential election and he chastized the Republican party for opening old
wounds. What's changed since '92?


I'm not a Democrat, so I wouldn't know. I imagine it might have
something to do with the media making it an issue from the start.


--Mike

Michael Wise wrote:

but don't you find it odd for a sitting president to
not make even a short stop in the LARGEST city of the country he is
stewarding?

If he had gone 4 years without a visit I'd find that odd, but not 8 months. Can
you prove other Presidents have visited NYC in their first 8 months? And once
again, I don't believe you ignore a part of the country just by not visiting
there and conversly I believe you can visit an area of the country multiple
times and ignore their needs.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

Michael Wise wrote:

And he said in an interview 2-3 days ago (I'm sorry, but I can't
remember the source) that he always thought he had received the Bronze
Star for saving the mined boat and that he did not know the citation (as
well as the post op reports) stated that he had done so under fire.


That was not the impression I got from the interview and I doubt your version
of it simply because it's ridiculous. You are trying to say that a man just
realized what the text of his citation read after 35 years. The only way this
is possibe is if he were awarded the Bronze Star after seperating and received
it in the mail and never read the citation.

He's claiming the whole under fire thing for his citation is a current
surprise to him

That's not the impression I got from the ABC interview and it seems absurd no?


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

(" That will be there as well. And that record will not include the loss of
2+ million jobs; starting a war based on lies; ignoring large chunks of his
own country; and generally being unfit to lead a Boyscout pack...much less
the country.") --Mike

Excuss me if I am wrong, but how did all these jobs get lost, NAFTA?
Crimmial Actions by Large companies. When did these things start....Under
the Clinton presidency. Now Kerry is claiming he will fight to have
companies bring back jobs to the US. How about starting with his WIFEs
companies to show he means what he says. Oh then theres the green side of
kerry..that America needs to drive cleaner cars, and burn less fuel, except
for him, flying is privite jets, 5 climate controled masions year round,
driving SUVs that are his when he is talking to auto makers in Michigan, and
the same SUVs belonging to the family not him when talking to eco-freaks.
Military records stand out more because Kerry has no other record to stand
on. he voted to raise gas taxes way to many times, he and Clinton hurt this
countries military in the 90s, voting to cut inteligent agencies. I believe
every thought we did not need the CIA,NSA,DIA after the cold war ended. But
lets face it the Middle East has always been a hot bed for the American way
of life, and the only importance it has to our intrests is the Oil. Kery has
missed votes while in office because it conflicted to his schedules. It is a
known fact that Iraq had WMDs, and that the fact we have not found them yet
has to deal with where they are, or what country or group has them now.

After 9-11 we had a president willing to go after any state that habored
terrorists, Iraq included becasue it had training camps. After the '93 world
train center bombing Clinton stated that the people involved will be brought
to justice....after the Cole he stated the samething, after the embacies in
Africa the same....Clinton made this country appear weak to a group of
people that want to kill AMERICANs. So they struck, thinking that we would
not do anything but talking tough. Every American wanted revenge on the
people behind 9-11....but now that troops are dying, they want to pull camp
and run. Yeah there was mistakes made in Iraq, but the outcome is the same
it had to be done.

I join the military with the knowledge that someday I could be called to
action. I served fpr 8 years with B-52s on Alert against the Soviet war
machine. I went to the Big sand box for the first Gulf War..Infact I
volunteered on Aug 3rd 1990 while still on alert. I went in Jan 91 and came
home in May 91.

I honor veteran everyday...as I treat there medical conditions as a nurse
for the VA. All wars, all branches, because they gave of themselves,
drafted, volunteered does not matter.

bill

(BUFDRVR) wrote in message ...
analyst41 wrote:

How do you "answer" a group that

(1) said nothing for 30 odd years, or said/wrote in the past the exact
opposite of what they are saying now ?

Wrong. Kerry was publically opposed by several members of the Swift Vets when
he first ran for public office. Kerry invited these men to organize when he
made his service in Vietnam the center piece of his Presidential campaign.

(2) Say that Kerry is lying, Kerry's boatmates are lying, Rassmann is
lying

Well, even the guy who recieved a Bronze Star for the event says he was
surprised to receive it since there was no enemy fire. Sounds like you've got
guys with nothing to gain telling one story and guys with much to gain telling
the other.


snip other "lies"

You have rather conveniently snipped the provable lie about bullet
holes that O'Neill is able to repeat with impunity on his endless TV
appearances - and so poor is Kerry's defnders' performance that he
never gets called on it.

from the Washingtom Post:

A report on "battle damage" to Thurlow's boat mentions "three 30 cal
bullet holes about super structure." According to Thurlow, at least
one of the bullet holes was the result of action the previous day,
when he ran into another Vietcong ambush.

Thurlow, Chenoweth, Pees and several of their crew members who belong
to Swift Boat Veterans for Truth say neither they nor Kerry came under
fire. "If there was fire, I would have made some notation in my
journal," Chenoweth said. "But it didn't happen that way. There wasn't
any fire." Although he read his diary entry to a reporter over the
phone, he declined to supply a copy.

The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, Rassmann said, "are not just
questioning Kerry's account, they are questioning my account. I take
that very personally. No one can tell me that we were not under fire.
I saw it, I heard the splashes, and I was scared to death. For them to
come back 35 years after the fact to tarnish not only Kerry's record,
but my veracity, is unconscionable."

Until now, eyewitness evidence supporting Kerry's version had come
only from his own crewmen. But yesterday, The Post independently
contacted a participant who has not spoken out so far in favor of
either camp who remembers coming under enemy fire. "There was a lot of
firing going on, and it came from both sides of the river," said Wayne
D. Langhofer, who manned a machine gun aboard PCF-43, the boat that
was directly behind Kerry's.

Langhofer said he distinctly remembered the "clack, clack, clack" of
enemy AK-47s, as well as muzzle flashes from the riverbanks.
Langhofer, who now works at a Kansas gunpowder plant, said he was
approached several months ago by leaders of Swift Boat Veterans for
Truth but declined their requests to speak out against Kerry.

End quote.

Thurlow has now been caught - confronted with documented evidence of
bullet holes - all he can come up with is that "at least one" was from
a previous engagement.



These guys can lie endlessly and there is simply no way of refuting
their allegations completely.

Well, if Kerry would personally address the issue instead of sending out his
surrogates to attack the messengers we would at least have two sides to the
story.

But these guys have put themselves out there and they already stand
discredited from the motive standpoint

What motive? Lets pretend Bush himself is organizing this, what could he offer
these guys as payment for their work? Cabnit positions? Money? Face it, these
guys have nothing to gain and that is what makes their story so compelling and
dangerous to the Kerry campaign.

Why should motive only be positive ? these guys hate Kerry for what
he did after coming back from Viet Nam - that is a large part of their
motivation. Any under the table deals with the Bush campaign haven't
been unearthed yet.


These are small-timers who might even crack under the pressure the
Kerry campaign is going to bring to bear on them

The only pressure the Kerry campaign has brought to bear is on the book
publishers and TV stations. This follows the Kerry campaigns absolute
embracement of Michael Moore. Can you say hypocritical?


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

Of course Bushs commercials will be negative. He has NOTHING to show after
four miserable years of laziness and incompetence.




This is CLEARLY in contrast with Kerry's nearly 20 years in the Senate during
which he's sponsored two (count them -- two) bills intended to help commercial
fishermen from Massachusetts. Other than that, I can't recall a single thing
he's done other than miss most of the meetings & votes on the committees he's
was/is a member of. I'd be grateful if someone can provide specifics of some
bills/laws I may have missed.



Ed
"If an enemy power is bent on conquering you, and proposed to
turn all of his resources to that end, he is at war with you;
and you -- unless you contemplate surrender -- are at war with
him." --Barry Goldwater