Full flap ILS

Roy,

But, there are some that are as short as 5000,


If that is a short runway to you and you're talking about the average
single-engine piston (including Bo's and the like), I'm afraid I'll
have to say you need serious training.

As for circling approaches, I wouldn't want to do those with the added
drag of full flaps, either.


--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

On 15 Oct 2006 09:27:48 -0700, "
wrote:

I flew safety for a friend in his Bonanza A36 w/ IO-550 yesterday. He
hand flew a perfect ILS, but it was with full flap and gears down at
around 22 in power. In my E35 Bonanza with E225 engine and low flap
and gear speeds, I almost always fly ILS with flap up, gears down at
around 17 in power. We both fly ILS at around 105 to 115 knots.

During lunch, we discussed the pros and cons of full flap ILS. My
friend's arguments were that with full flap, when breaking out at
minimum for landing, all you have to do is to pull back on the power
and land ("get dirty early"). And with higher power setting, less
stress is on the engine when going full power for miss and quicker
power application (especially when one gets into turbo, turboprop or
jet).

My landings are all full flap, but I only run about 15 degrees of flap
on the ILS. The reason being that if I had to go full power with full
flaps that Debonair is a hand full to keep the nose down until you
retrim. There is no change in trim with flaps application but there
is with speed and power. 40 degrees of flap in the landing
configuration and full power will put the nose so far up you'll stall
if you don't get it down. Hence my reason for only partial flaps on
the ILS. I do have the gear down.

The reason for the gear is when flying by the numbers at GS intercept
ALL I have to do is put the gear down and I'll be following the GS
very close with no other adjustments.

Yes, coming in at 105 to 110 knots when the normal landing speed is
about 70 knots makes the 30 to 40 knot transition a busy time.


My argument against full flap ILS is that that less initial climb
performance would be available during miss approach. I feel the time
required to retract full flap to approach flap then to no flap would
significantly reduce your climb gradient. Going full power with full

The Deb goes up like a rocket the first 500 feet with full flaps.

flap requires a large change in pitch, but climb rate is not better at
full flap because the added drag. In addition, between landing after
breaking out at minimum and executing a miss approach, I prefer less
workload during the miss.

Full power, hold the nose down while the flaps are coming up and
retrimming at the same time. It takes about 5 seconds but it is busy!
:-))




What are your opinions?
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

BPPP recommendations on instrument approach is not more
than appr flaps for approach phase. Reasons:

1. More speed is good; avoid slipping behind power curve
in turbulence; usually you are being nagged to keep speed up
anyway

2. Full flaps & full power on go around tend to pitch airplane
into dangerously high attitude to cope with if in clouds

3. It is very easy to go full flaps and stabilize at landing speed
when landing is assured; can easily be done in 1/2 mile.

4. Burns less gas.

In airplanes w/o flap preselect, we suggest you do it clean
because there is no real advantage to extending the flaps;
that way you will get the same exact answer each time: 0 degrees.

Changing the flaps part way down creates an unnecessary trim
event. Keep it simple.

Bill Hale BPPP instructor K0QA


Roger (K8RI) wrote:
On 15 Oct 2006 09:27:48 -0700, "
wrote:

I flew safety for a friend in his Bonanza A36 w/ IO-550 yesterday. He
hand flew a perfect ILS, but it was with full flap and gears down at
around 22 in power. In my E35 Bonanza with E225 engine and low flap
and gear speeds, I almost always fly ILS with flap up, gears down at
around 17 in power. We both fly ILS at around 105 to 115 knots.

During lunch, we discussed the pros and cons of full flap ILS. My
friend's arguments were that with full flap, when breaking out at
minimum for landing, all you have to do is to pull back on the power
and land ("get dirty early"). And with higher power setting, less
stress is on the engine when going full power for miss and quicker
power application (especially when one gets into turbo, turboprop or
jet).

My landings are all full flap, but I only run about 15 degrees of flap
on the ILS. The reason being that if I had to go full power with full
flaps that Debonair is a hand full to keep the nose down until you
retrim. There is no change in trim with flaps application but there
is with speed and power. 40 degrees of flap in the landing
configuration and full power will put the nose so far up you'll stall
if you don't get it down. Hence my reason for only partial flaps on
the ILS. I do have the gear down.

The reason for the gear is when flying by the numbers at GS intercept
ALL I have to do is put the gear down and I'll be following the GS
very close with no other adjustments.

Yes, coming in at 105 to 110 knots when the normal landing speed is
about 70 knots makes the 30 to 40 knot transition a busy time.


My argument against full flap ILS is that that less initial climb
performance would be available during miss approach. I feel the time
required to retract full flap to approach flap then to no flap would
significantly reduce your climb gradient. Going full power with full

The Deb goes up like a rocket the first 500 feet with full flaps.

flap requires a large change in pitch, but climb rate is not better at
full flap because the added drag. In addition, between landing after
breaking out at minimum and executing a miss approach, I prefer less
workload during the miss.

Full power, hold the nose down while the flaps are coming up and
retrimming at the same time. It takes about 5 seconds but it is busy!
:-))




What are your opinions?
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

In a previous article, "Bill" said:
BPPP recommendations on instrument approach is not more
than appr flaps for approach phase. Reasons:

1. More speed is good; avoid slipping behind power curve
in turbulence; usually you are being nagged to keep speed up
anyway

2. Full flaps & full power on go around tend to pitch airplane
into dangerously high attitude to cope with if in clouds

3. It is very easy to go full flaps and stabilize at landing speed
when landing is assured; can easily be done in 1/2 mile.

4. Burns less gas.

My instructor had a couple more reasons, based on the fact that with an
Archer or Dakota a full flap ILS means 90-100 knots:

5. In this part of the world, you'll often pick up some ice on the
approach - no flaps means less ice on the tail plane.

6. At a big airport, ATC will want you to fly ILSes as fast as possible.
Get used to flying them at 120 knots. Plus you'll spend less time in the
ice.


--
Paul Tomblin http://blog.xcski.com/
"He passed away during an important civic function held in his honor when the
platform upon which he was standing collapsed." "I thought he was hanged?"
"That's what I said, isn't it?"

ptomblin wrote:

My instructor had a couple more reasons [...]

Here's another one. The autopilot in my birdie says that fully
coupled ILS is only allowed without flaps.

- FChE

On 17 Oct 2006 06:15:09 -0700, "Bill" wrote:

BPPP recommendations on instrument approach is not more
than appr flaps for approach phase. Reasons:

1. More speed is good; avoid slipping behind power curve
in turbulence; usually you are being nagged to keep speed up
anyway

Yup

2. Full flaps & full power on go around tend to pitch airplane
into dangerously high attitude to cope with if in clouds

In the clouds? Hell it's dangerous on a bright sunshiny day:-)) That
thing will want to stand on end.

3. It is very easy to go full flaps and stabilize at landing speed
when landing is assured; can easily be done in 1/2 mile.

Easily. (If the pilot knows his airplane)


4. Burns less gas.

Cheapest part of flying even when prices were at their highest.


In airplanes w/o flap preselect, we suggest you do it clean
because there is no real advantage to extending the flaps;
that way you will get the same exact answer each time: 0 degrees.

1001, 1002, 1003...has worked for me for the past 13 or 14 years.


Changing the flaps part way down creates an unnecessary trim
event. Keep it simple.

Ahhh...Changing flaps in my Deb does not change trim at all.


Bill Hale BPPP instructor K0QA

My Deb does not change trim at all from no flaps to full flaps. It
changes trim drastically with speed or a large increase in power. So
if the application of flaps slows me then, yes I'd have to retrim. On
mine the trim is that big wheel under the panel, out of sight. A
quarter inch movement on the circumference of that wheel will either
lift you right out of the seats, or push you down into them. It took
a while to get used to that. :-)) I believe after the first 30 or 40
units they changed the trim to something more easily manageable. OTOH
you don't have to waste time getting the nose down on a go-around
:-))

As I'm normally reading MPH it's 120 stabilized prior to the localizer
intercept. trimmed for level hands off at GS intercept. Hold the nose
level with gear extension at GS intercept. Add or reduce power by 1"
MP for each 100 fpm change needed. It rides the ILS as if it were on
rails.

Full flaps when the runway is made.

I don't remember the instructor's name I had down at Port Columbus,
but I'd sure like to thank him for drilling in the "failed engine
procedures". Mine quit on take off and I didn't even have to think
about what to do. It was a nice, uneventful landing far shorter than
I'd have expected. The diaphragm in the spider on top of the engine
blew. Instant silence. That fuel shut off valve really works. So
does the manual one as that thing was spraying a 1/4 inch stream of
gas on those hot cylinders.

That three blade prop will wind mill down to about 30 -35 MPH.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com