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#11
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I seem to remember a rumour during GWI that one of the RNs air defence
ships apparently managed to detect F-117As using some form of '50s long wave radar. No rumor, fact. Stealth is not invisible to all frequiencies. Some will detect at longer ranges than others. Understanding radar therory and a close reading of Aviation week will confirm the rumor. During DS the Hummers kept track of the 117's for the Airfarce. What radars were destroyed by the snake eaters on the opening salvo of DS? Sparky |
#12
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"WDA" vented spleen or mostly mumbled...
In the 60s carrier based A-3 heavy attack bombers flying above 40,000 feet often could approach a warship and not be detected on the air search radar even when passing overhead. As a 60s era carrier based Air Intercept Controller, I'll argue your claim from two contrarian perspectives... A. Unless some here can establish reasonable evidence to the contrary the number of A3 strike sorties (or EA3 missions) routinely flown above Angels 40 will fit over in the slim and none category. Ops above 40 with any navy a/c in the early 60s were simply not the norm, and even the most capable, the F8s, were troubled by compressor stalls in certain attitudes. Certainly, the advent of the F4 changed the picture, but F4s remained in short supply until '64 or so. B. I can't think of an aspect in which an A3 wasn't a well-painted target (at least on the SPS-37 or 43, although I had no experience with low flyers (but I knew few former A3 drivers who were happy flying low, them downward firing seats lending little survivability to a low altitude mechanical problem). I "learned" on an SPS-12, a gadget of lesser range, but there were controllers who worked SPS-6s, high art and good intuitive skill required. TMO |
#14
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TMOliver wrote in message ...
"WDA" vented spleen or mostly mumbled... In the 60s carrier based A-3 heavy attack bombers flying above 40,000 feet often could approach a warship and not be detected on the air search radar even when passing overhead. As a 60s era carrier based Air Intercept Controller, I'll argue your claim from two contrarian perspectives... B. I can't think of an aspect in which an A3 wasn't a well-painted target (at least on the SPS-37 or 43, although I had no experience with low flyers (but I knew few former A3 drivers who were happy flying low, them downward firing seats lending little survivability to a low altitude mechanical problem). I "learned" on an SPS-12, a gadget of lesser range, but there were controllers who worked SPS-6s, high art and good intuitive skill required. TMO Just one niggle TM, A-3s had no ejection seats, but they did have a chute on the bottom of the fuselage. If WDA's memories were of ops in the MED, his post has some merit. There were many, many times in the summer months the SPS-10 (surface search) would paint aircraft at angels 33 (verified with SPG-55 and mode c) and not paint the carrier at 15,000 yards, while the SPS-49 would paint dead cow carcasses and other floatsam and jetsam (depress the antenna on the 49 and it would paint a periscope really well) on a glassy sea surface and not show the first aircraft above angels 5. |
#15
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Sorry, TMO, You got it all wrong!
What downward ejection seats in the A-3-3 are you talking about? The A-3 never had ejection seats! Hell, we could get to 50,000 feet altitude in the FJ-3 in 1956! A-3s flying back and forth over your black shoe radars without being detected was so common off Pt Mugu that radar beacons had to be used to be able to conduct ship's missile tests. FYI, the A-3 probably had the most sophisticated ECM system in any USA aircraft when the Vietnam "flail-ex" commenced. We took the ALQ-51 deception repeaters out of our A-3s to install in A-4s flying over Hanoi. Later a dozen other Navy.Marine a/c types also got the ALQ-51. We even had to cough up fifty of them for Air Force photo recce a/c. Meanwhile the USAF was putting the ALQ-76 "jamming pods on their F-4s. "Protection" by that pod required their a/c to fly in rigid parade formation to counter the Fansong radar. But if just one of the pod equipped planes slid out of formation it was immediately tracked and nailed by Guidline missiles. That was because the damned pods were actually beacons instead of jammers! CDR Dick Seymour [later the VADM commanding Naval Air Systems Command] took a squadron set of ALQ-76 to Yankee Station with his A-4s but never put the damned things on any of his aircraft going feet dry over NVN. He brought all his pilots home safe. Sorry, TMO, there's much more to the A-3 story than you are evidently aware of. WDA VF-24, VA-192, 1955 - 1959 end "TMOliver" wrote in message ... "WDA" vented spleen or mostly mumbled... In the 60s carrier based A-3 heavy attack bombers flying above 40,000 feet often could approach a warship and not be detected on the air search radar even when passing overhead. As a 60s era carrier based Air Intercept Controller, I'll argue your claim from two contrarian perspectives... A. Unless some here can establish reasonable evidence to the contrary the number of A3 strike sorties (or EA3 missions) routinely flown above Angels 40 will fit over in the slim and none category. Ops above 40 with any navy a/c in the early 60s were simply not the norm, and even the most capable, the F8s, were troubled by compressor stalls in certain attitudes. Certainly, the advent of the F4 changed the picture, but F4s remained in short supply until '64 or so. B. I can't think of an aspect in which an A3 wasn't a well-painted target (at least on the SPS-37 or 43, although I had no experience with low flyers (but I knew few former A3 drivers who were happy flying low, them downward firing seats lending little survivability to a low altitude mechanical problem). I "learned" on an SPS-12, a gadget of lesser range, but there were controllers who worked SPS-6s, high art and good intuitive skill required. TMO |
#16
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"WDA" vented spleen or mostly mumbled...
Sorry, TMO, there's much more to the A-3 story than you are evidently aware of. I simply don't recollect the A3s or EA3s routinely operating above 40,000, or presenting anything out of the ordinary as radar target. I do recall pilots who had flown the FJ series claiming that its parameters greatly exceeded those of the Demon which normally flew neither high nor long. In the Med, the constraints against activating active ECM gear were almost prohibitive. It was not uncommon for low altitude A1 strikes to avoid detection (even with their four paddled reflector), all of sudden popping up on the SPS-10C which had to be finely adjusted to not mask snorkels in sea return. TMO |
#17
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"WDA" wrote in message . net... SNIP SNIP SNIP SNIP Meanwhile the USAF was putting the ALQ-76 "jamming pods on their F-4s. "Protection" by that pod required their a/c to fly in rigid parade formation to counter the Fansong radar. But if just one of the pod equipped planes slid out of formation it was immediately tracked and nailed by Guidline missiles. That was because the damned pods were actually beacons instead of jammers! WDA VF-24, VA-192, 1955 - 1959 Ah Hah! Flying the infamous SAM box with the ALQ-76. (The ALQ-76's were amplifying beacons). The theory was to keep a 800-1000 feet between aircraft. The signal return (+amplification) would look like one aircraft and the SAM would guide to the center of the blip. Therefore the SAM will detonate between the aircraft missing each by 400-500 feet. Would you trust this device? Red |
#18
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I was flying USAF 86Fs and later 86Ds on Okinawa 54-57. I was told
Navy A3Ds would routinely cross overhead at 40+ on their way to and from PI - Japan. Their cruising speed was high enough to give the Dog fits trying to intercept them before running out of fuel. Walt BJ |
#19
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Red wrote:
"WDA" wrote in message . net... SNIP SNIP SNIP SNIP Meanwhile the USAF was putting the ALQ-76 "jamming pods on their F-4s. "Protection" by that pod required their a/c to fly in rigid parade formation to counter the Fansong radar. But if just one of the pod equipped planes slid out of formation it was immediately tracked and nailed by Guidline missiles. That was because the damned pods were actually beacons instead of jammers! WDA VF-24, VA-192, 1955 - 1959 Ah Hah! Flying the infamous SAM box with the ALQ-76. (The ALQ-76's were amplifying beacons). The theory was to keep a 800-1000 feet between aircraft. The signal return (+amplification) would look like one aircraft and the SAM would guide to the center of the blip. Therefore the SAM will detonate between the aircraft missing each by 400-500 feet. Would you trust this device? Allow me to point out that the Air Force fighters used the ALQ-71 (nee' QRC-160-1) and later the ALQ-87 (nee' QRC-160-8) noise jammers, not the ALQ-76. And the USN suffered greater percentage losses to SAMs in Vietnam than the USAF did, despite all the navy a/c being equipped with the ALQ-51. Both types of jammers had their advantages and disadvantages; the USAF began using the ALQ-101 (nee' QRC-335) combined noise/deception jammer from 1968, on those a/c that by nature of their missions (MiGCAP, Wild Weasel) had to fly more independently. With regard to Bill Allen's statement that the Air Force pods were "actually beacons instead of jammers," that's rather subject to fine print. Certainly by 1972 the VPAF/ADF SAM crews were sometimes operating in a "jamming strobe" mode, decreasing the gain to use the jamming strobe for direction/elevation, and a separate radar (often in another band) to provide range data. But AFAIK they never had the capability to use a true home-on-jam capability; the SA-2 was command guided (unlike the Sparrow), so how could they? The USAF noise jamming pods were also modified to jam the missile beacons (transponders) starting around the end of 1967, which proved extremely effective until the VPAF/ADF (actually, their Soviet advisers) made some changes to the transponders to make this type of jamming more difficult. This took effect no later than 1972, and possibly a bit earlier (I'd have to check a few sources). Guy |
#20
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"Charles Talleyrand" wrote in message ...
How good was shipborne radar in the 60s against a 2003 airforce? For example, could a 1964 ship detect an incoming modern strike before the explosions began in the face of modern ACM. A ship with 60s radar is useless against a 2003 airforce, unless you're talking about a Vietnamese Air Force. The only radars ships had back then were air search and tracking, surface search, and missle guidance. But likewise 2003 Airforce Radar is equally useless against 2003 Navy Radar. I ask both because I'm curious about the past and because there are navies out there using old-fashioned technology. All navies use some technology dating back to at least the 5th Century BC. It wasn't until the mid 19th century that navies even started to use anything other than sails, compasses, knives, swords, spears, fish barrels, and knots as their primary weapons. And there's also armies out there using 10th Century technology, and some of them are still winning wars, even against 21st Air Forces. |
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