Experimentals down in Fla

Orval Fairbairn wrote:

He explained that there is no such thing as an ³uncontrolled airport,²
that there are towered and untowered airports, but both have some type
of control. He also explaind that a tower would not have prevented the
accident.

It sounds like an impressive briefing, but I am curious as to what
"control" is available at non-towererd airports?

Matt

In article ,
Matt Whiting wrote:

Orval Fairbairn wrote:

He explained that there is no such thing as an ³uncontrolled airport,²
that there are towered and untowered airports, but both have some type
of control. He also explaind that a tower would not have prevented the
accident.

It sounds like an impressive briefing, but I am curious as to what
"control" is available at non-towererd airports?

Matt

FARs, pilot responsibility, Good Operating practices, Mk I eyeballs,
CTAF.

I take it that you do not fly?

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Orval Fairbairn wrote:


Only partially correct. The Velocity initially called in that he was
landing on 33 but changed to 15 when all other traffic reported that
they were using 15. The wind was calm. He made a straight-in behind RV
Flight and caused Red Flight (SX-300s) to alter their pattern. Keith was
lead in Red Flight and saw it all.

BTW -- I apologise for the multiple posts, as I am having trouble with
Newswatcher.

Thank you very much for taking the time to share this, and I apologize
for passing along information that turned out to be less than factual.

So this was not a head-to-head on the same runway, leading to a
departure from the runway, as has been alleged?

Dave

"Orval Fairbairn" wrote in message
news
Thank you Orval, condolences to all...

In article ,
"Blueskies" wrote:

"Orval Fairbairn" wrote in message
news
Thank you Orval, condolences to all...

Thank you. Flags at Spruce Creek are flying at half-staff. Phil's
services are Friday, in New Smyrna Beach; I don't have info on Bill's
services.

It was like standing on a street corner and being hit by a runaway car.
I don't think that either one saw it coming, as their flight was taxiing
in from their right, so they were probably watching them.

One of the other RV'ers was on the ground, watching. He said that the
Velocity rammed the RV-8 on the left side, in the cockpit area and moved
it about 50 feet. The RV-8 sat there for a moment, engine running, then
burst into flames. Neither occupant moved.

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Orval Fairbairn wrote:
In article ,
Matt Whiting wrote:

Orval Fairbairn wrote:

He explained that there is no such thing as an ³uncontrolled airport,²
that there are towered and untowered airports, but both have some type
of control. He also explaind that a tower would not have prevented the
accident.
It sounds like an impressive briefing, but I am curious as to what
"control" is available at non-towererd airports?

Matt

FARs, pilot responsibility, Good Operating practices, Mk I eyeballs,
CTAF.

I take it that you do not fly?


I don't fly as much as I would like, but I've had my license since 1978.
I'll grant you a few of the FARs could be considered "control", but
not in the sense that most use the word. Direction of turns, ROW, etc.,
constitute a very, very weak form of control, but with nobody there to
monitor it really is voluntary. I don't consider the other items you
mention to be forms of control at all.

Matt

In article ,
Matt Whiting wrote:

Orval Fairbairn wrote:
In article ,
Matt Whiting wrote:

Orval Fairbairn wrote:

He explained that there is no such thing as an ³uncontrolled airport,²
that there are towered and untowered airports, but both have some type
of control. He also explaind that a tower would not have prevented the
accident.
It sounds like an impressive briefing, but I am curious as to what
"control" is available at non-towererd airports?

Matt

FARs, pilot responsibility, Good Operating practices, Mk I eyeballs,
CTAF.

I take it that you do not fly?


I don't fly as much as I would like, but I've had my license since 1978.
I'll grant you a few of the FARs could be considered "control", but
not in the sense that most use the word. Direction of turns, ROW, etc.,
constitute a very, very weak form of control, but with nobody there to
monitor it really is voluntary. I don't consider the other items you
mention to be forms of control at all.

Matt

Why do you think that we need that much "control" in the first place?

Know the difference between pilots and Air Traffic Controllers?

1. If a pilot screws up, the pilot can die.

2. If an Air Traffic Controller screws up, a pilot can die.

We don't NEED a tower at most GA airports -- most of those are there for
training purposes for controllers. In fact, a "controller" "controls"
nothing -- (s)he is, in reality, a coordinator.

If the Swiss pilot of the Velocity had made an overhead approach
instead of straight-in, he would have been behind my flight and I might
have been sitting at the end of that airport when he dropped in.

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Orval Fairbairn wrote:
In article ,
Matt Whiting wrote:

Orval Fairbairn wrote:
In article ,
Matt Whiting wrote:

Orval Fairbairn wrote:

He explained that there is no such thing as an ³uncontrolled airport,²
that there are towered and untowered airports, but both have some type
of control. He also explaind that a tower would not have prevented the
accident.
It sounds like an impressive briefing, but I am curious as to what
"control" is available at non-towererd airports?

Matt
FARs, pilot responsibility, Good Operating practices, Mk I eyeballs,
CTAF.

I take it that you do not fly?

I don't fly as much as I would like, but I've had my license since 1978.
I'll grant you a few of the FARs could be considered "control", but
not in the sense that most use the word. Direction of turns, ROW, etc.,
constitute a very, very weak form of control, but with nobody there to
monitor it really is voluntary. I don't consider the other items you
mention to be forms of control at all.

Matt

Why do you think that we need that much "control" in the first place?

Why do you think that I think we do need control? I never said or even
implied that?


Know the difference between pilots and Air Traffic Controllers?

Quite well.


1. If a pilot screws up, the pilot can die.

2. If an Air Traffic Controller screws up, a pilot can die.

You are just a fount of wisdom. I never heard those lines before!


We don't NEED a tower at most GA airports -- most of those are there for
training purposes for controllers. In fact, a "controller" "controls"
nothing -- (s)he is, in reality, a coordinator.

I never said we did.

On Mar 6, 12:15*pm, Orval Fairbairn
wrote:
In article ,
*Matt Whiting wrote:





Orval Fairbairn wrote:
In article ,
*Matt Whiting wrote:

Orval Fairbairn wrote:

He explained that there is no such thing as an ³uncontrolled airport,²
that there are towered and untowered airports, but both have some type
of control. He also explaind that a tower would not have prevented the
accident.
It sounds like an impressive briefing, but I am curious as to what
"control" is available at non-towererd airports?

Matt

FARs, pilot responsibility, Good Operating practices, Mk I eyeballs,
CTAF.

I take it that you do not fly?

I don't fly as much as I would like, but I've had my license since 1978.
* *I'll grant you a few of the FARs could be considered "control", but
not in the sense that most use the word. *Direction of turns, ROW, etc..,
constitute a very, very weak form of control, but with nobody there to
monitor it really is voluntary. *I don't consider the other items you
mention to be forms of control at all.

Matt

Why do you think that we need that much "control" in the first place?

Know the difference between pilots and Air Traffic Controllers?

1. If a pilot screws up, the pilot can die.

2. If an Air Traffic Controller screws up, a pilot can die.

We don't NEED a tower at most GA airports -- most of those are there for
training purposes for controllers. In fact, a "controller" "controls"
nothing -- (s)he is, in reality, a coordinator.

If the Swiss pilot of the Velocity had made an overhead approach *
instead of straight-in, he would have been behind my flight and I might
have been sitting at the end of that airport when he dropped in.

--
Remove _'s *from email address to talk to me.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Orval Fairbairn wrote:

Only partially correct. The Velocity initially called in that he was
landing on 33 but changed to 15 when all other traffic reported that
they were using 15. The wind was calm. He made a straight-in behind RV
Flight and caused Red Flight (SX-300s) to alter their pattern. Keith was
lead in Red Flight and saw it all.

Ok Now I am confused again, :)...

The velocity departed from Sebastian Fla, which is south of the field
where the crash happened. He would have been making a straight in on
33. If he did change his plan and land on 15 he would have had to
enter a left or right downwind. turn base and then final... Is it
because your squadran of Rv's might have got him a little rattled?
Did your group make a low pass before they landed? I am guessing they
probably do every time they come down for pancakes. I am not trying to
start a fuss but it does seem strange you did make the point to say
his straight in caused Keith and Red Flight to alter their pattern. It
sounds on face value like this was your sandbox and the Velocity was
an intruder... Jus curious ya know..

In article
,
stol wrote:

On Mar 6, 12:15*pm, Orval Fairbairn
wrote:
In article ,
*Matt Whiting wrote:





Orval Fairbairn wrote:
In article ,
*Matt Whiting wrote:

Orval Fairbairn wrote:

He explained that there is no such thing as an ³uncontrolled airport,²
that there are towered and untowered airports, but both have some type
of control. He also explaind that a tower would not have prevented the
accident.
It sounds like an impressive briefing, but I am curious as to what
"control" is available at non-towererd airports?

Matt

FARs, pilot responsibility, Good Operating practices, Mk I eyeballs,
CTAF.

I take it that you do not fly?

I don't fly as much as I would like, but I've had my license since 1978.
* *I'll grant you a few of the FARs could be considered "control", but
not in the sense that most use the word. *Direction of turns, ROW, etc.,
constitute a very, very weak form of control, but with nobody there to
monitor it really is voluntary. *I don't consider the other items you
mention to be forms of control at all.

Matt

Why do you think that we need that much "control" in the first place?

Know the difference between pilots and Air Traffic Controllers?

1. If a pilot screws up, the pilot can die.

2. If an Air Traffic Controller screws up, a pilot can die.

We don't NEED a tower at most GA airports -- most of those are there for
training purposes for controllers. In fact, a "controller" "controls"
nothing -- (s)he is, in reality, a coordinator.

If the Swiss pilot of the Velocity had made an overhead approach *
instead of straight-in, he would have been behind my flight and I might
have been sitting at the end of that airport when he dropped in.

--
Remove _'s *from email address to talk to me.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Orval Fairbairn wrote:

Only partially correct. The Velocity initially called in that he was
landing on 33 but changed to 15 when all other traffic reported that
they were using 15. The wind was calm. He made a straight-in behind RV
Flight and caused Red Flight (SX-300s) to alter their pattern. Keith was
lead in Red Flight and saw it all.

Ok Now I am confused again, :)...

The velocity departed from Sebastian Fla, which is south of the field
where the crash happened. He would have been making a straight in on
33. If he did change his plan and land on 15 he would have had to
enter a left or right downwind. turn base and then final... Is it
because your squadran of Rv's might have got him a little rattled?
Did your group make a low pass before they landed? I am guessing they
probably do every time they come down for pancakes. I am not trying to
start a fuss but it does seem strange you did make the point to say
his straight in caused Keith and Red Flight to alter their pattern. It
sounds on face value like this was your sandbox and the Velocity was
an intruder... Jus curious ya know..

"Our sandbox?" No, but we do frequent their pancake breakfast with 20-30
airplanes, which does strain parking. We do not treat others as
"intruders." We also try to give others room in the pattern, so I really
do not know about the "rattle factor." According to other reports, the
Velocity pilot was a Swiss national, living near Sebastian and was
supposedly an experienced pilot.

The Velocity initially called in from the south, wanting to make a
straight-in for 33; however, everybody else was using 15, so he was so
informed. The RVs did overfly, some with smoke. I am not sure whether or
not they made more than one pass per flight. They broke left from the
overhead to downwind and landed.

The Velocity apparently circled wide and entered a straight-in for 15.
He did NOT enter a standard downwind pattern, otherwise the flights
would have adjusted their break to accommodate him. That is what Keith
did when he followed the Velocity.

I do not know why the Velocity pilot added full power once he left the
runway. Had he not done so, he might have ended up with a bent bird, but
that is about all, as the grass and rough terrain would have stopped him
pretty quickly. According to Keith, he was kicking up a lot of grass and
debris after he left the runway. It is even possible that his prop
impacted the ground and started to come apart.

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