Mr. Gustin, Mr Caidin, and B-17's

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
hlink.net...

What's Caidin's track record?

Mr. Gustin:

His writing "never let the facts get in the way of a good story."
He wrote a lot of books, always giving far more attention to being
entertaining than to accuracy. That, of course, is not so harmful
where his numerous works of fiction are concerned; his works
of history however...

Caidin's works are spreading and
perpetuating more aviation history myths and errors than those
of any other author, of course also because they were so widely
sold.

You can expound on the above as you see fit. So far, you've provided no facts,
just gossip.

Let's deal with this B-17/FW-190 collision story that you found so hard to
swallow.

This B-17 was named "TS".

Caidin wrote:

"Coming back from bombing an airdrome on July 14th, a Fortress met a nose
attack by three FW-190's with a blast of fire that destroyed two of the
fighters and evidently killed the pilot of the third. It crashed head on into
the number three engine of the Fortress with an impact that that tore off the
propeller and knocked the bomber completely out of formation. The German
fighter did a cartwheel over the Fortress, cutting halfway through the wing and
a third of the way through the horizontal stabliizer. Top and ball turrets on
the bomber jammed, radio equipment was smashed; all the instruments, according
to the co-pilot, 'went crazy'. Pieces of the metal from the disintegrating
Focke-Wulf hurtled through the fuselage. A gun barrel burried itself in the
wall between the radio room and the bomb bay. Other crews in the formation
later reported that the Fortress had blown up as a result of the collision. It
had not. On the contrary, it pulled itself together, shot down one more
fighter, limped back under a canopy of sympathetic P-47's, and made a belly
landing at an English base. None of the crew was scratched."

-- "Flying Forts" pp 393-94, by Martin Caidin

Now let's compare that to another source:

"As "TS" was making her turn off the target, Lt. Weniger called in a pair of
FW-190's who were climbing at full rate on a parallel course, and when far
enough ahead reversing their course to make what he later described as a "balls
to the wall" forward pass. The ensuing events are best related in his own
words:

"Prior to coming into range you could see their wings belching fire. All our
gunner were firing at max rate, but they kept on coming. At this point I knew
we were in for a real problem. The lead fighter rolled to the left and Split S
down some four or five lengths ahead of us. Sgt. Tucker (BT) shouted out ' He
almost took my guns with him!' The wingman to the right was either dead or
damned mad at us for bombing his airfield when he also rolled left for a split
S. His aircraft was perpendicular when he crashed into us between the number 3
engine and the fuselage. His nose section and propeller became unglued and
departed over the top of number 4, cutting a deep gash in the nacelle top whch
immediately poured forth a a big black stream of oil resembling a Texas oil
gusher into the air.

The crashing Fw. continued on down the fuselage, embedding one of his 20MM guns
in our bomb bay and part of his fuselage lodged in our aircraft...Sgt. Budzik
(RWG) was holding his gun when the Fw hit the barrel. He repoted the shock was
so great that it threw him to the floor. The Fw's progress knocked the dorsal
fin out of alignment and heavily damaged the right horizontal stabilizer....the
FW left the scene in an un-controlled cartwheel -- that's the hard way to
knock down one of Jerry's fighters, and is not recommended for longevity for
bomber crews!

Due to the impact "TS" was in a dead stall. Acting on reflex, Eddie and I
rammed the yokes forward to their full extent and pushed the throttles forward
for maximum power. Then it was time for a little prayer to see if TS would
would either fly or fall off on one wing into an irretrieveable stall or
spin...As the group began to fade into the distance and we were letting down at
500 ft a minute to maintain flying speed, 'Smitty' (Lt. Marvin Smith,
naviagtor) came up from below to report that all was okay and that the nearest
base was Manston. We could see the Channel when to our surprise and bad luck we
flew over a flak battery, and big black smoke-puffs appeared all 'round. We
received a number of hits, happily none direct; evasive action was very limited
due to TS' condition. After running out of range (we later counted over 1000
holes in TS) we were sure nothing else could happen, although we were flying on
a wing and a prayer.. In this we were soon proved wrong!

O'Donnell, on hs second return from the rear, called in German fighters. When
asked if he thought they would attack the question was answered a moment later
when a 20MM exploded under Eddie's seat."

-- "Ridgewell's Flying Fortresses" pp. 29-30 by Ron Mackay

I don't see anything that contradicts what Caidin wrote, although there is no
mention of kills by the pilot. In fact, the story is even more amazing that
Caidin let on.

But I think the onus in on Mr. Gustin to substantiate his claims or apolgize.

And the serial. number on "TS" was 23211

I do have a picture of TS and I'll post the URL later.

Walt

Subject: Mr. Gustin, Mr Caidin, and B-17's
From: (WalterM140)
Date: 4/16/04 4:11 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
thlink.net...

What's Caidin's track record?

Mr. Gustin:

His writing "never let the facts get in the way of a good story."
He wrote a lot of books, always giving far more attention to being
entertaining than to accuracy. That, of course, is not so harmful
where his numerous works of fiction are concerned; his works
of history however...

Caidin's works are spreading and
perpetuating more aviation history myths and errors than those
of any other author, of course also because they were so widely
sold.

You can expound on the above as you see fit. So far, you've provided no
facts,
just gossip.

Let's deal with this B-17/FW-190 collision story that you found so hard to
swallow.

This B-17 was named "TS".

Caidin wrote:

"Coming back from bombing an airdrome on July 14th, a Fortress met a nose
attack by three FW-190's with a blast of fire that destroyed two of the
fighters and evidently killed the pilot of the third. It crashed head on
into
the number three engine of the Fortress with an impact that that tore off the
propeller and knocked the bomber completely out of formation. The German
fighter did a cartwheel over the Fortress, cutting halfway through the wing
and
a third of the way through the horizontal stabliizer. Top and ball turrets on
the bomber jammed, radio equipment was smashed; all the instruments,
according
to the co-pilot, 'went crazy'. Pieces of the metal from the disintegrating
Focke-Wulf hurtled through the fuselage. A gun barrel burried itself in the
wall between the radio room and the bomb bay. Other crews in the formation
later reported that the Fortress had blown up as a result of the collision.
It
had not. On the contrary, it pulled itself together, shot down one more
fighter, limped back under a canopy of sympathetic P-47's, and made a belly
landing at an English base. None of the crew was scratched."

-- "Flying Forts" pp 393-94, by Martin Caidin

Now let's compare that to another source:

"As "TS" was making her turn off the target, Lt. Weniger called in a pair of
FW-190's who were climbing at full rate on a parallel course, and when far
enough ahead reversing their course to make what he later described as a
"balls
to the wall" forward pass. The ensuing events are best related in his own
words:

"Prior to coming into range you could see their wings belching fire. All our
gunner were firing at max rate, but they kept on coming. At this point I
knew
we were in for a real problem. The lead fighter rolled to the left and Split
S
down some four or five lengths ahead of us. Sgt. Tucker (BT) shouted out '
He
almost took my guns with him!' The wingman to the right was either dead or
damned mad at us for bombing his airfield when he also rolled left for a
split
S. His aircraft was perpendicular when he crashed into us between the number
3
engine and the fuselage. His nose section and propeller became unglued and
departed over the top of number 4, cutting a deep gash in the nacelle top
whch
immediately poured forth a a big black stream of oil resembling a Texas oil
gusher into the air.

The crashing Fw. continued on down the fuselage, embedding one of his 20MM
guns
in our bomb bay and part of his fuselage lodged in our aircraft...Sgt. Budzik
(RWG) was holding his gun when the Fw hit the barrel. He repoted the shock
was
so great that it threw him to the floor. The Fw's progress knocked the
dorsal
fin out of alignment and heavily damaged the right horizontal
stabilizer....the
FW left the scene in an un-controlled cartwheel -- that's the hard way to
knock down one of Jerry's fighters, and is not recommended for longevity for
bomber crews!

Due to the impact "TS" was in a dead stall. Acting on reflex, Eddie and I
rammed the yokes forward to their full extent and pushed the throttles
forward
for maximum power. Then it was time for a little prayer to see if TS would
would either fly or fall off on one wing into an irretrieveable stall or
spin...As the group began to fade into the distance and we were letting down
at
500 ft a minute to maintain flying speed, 'Smitty' (Lt. Marvin Smith,
naviagtor) came up from below to report that all was okay and that the
nearest
base was Manston. We could see the Channel when to our surprise and bad luck
we
flew over a flak battery, and big black smoke-puffs appeared all 'round. We
received a number of hits, happily none direct; evasive action was very
limited
due to TS' condition. After running out of range (we later counted over 1000
holes in TS) we were sure nothing else could happen, although we were flying
on
a wing and a prayer.. In this we were soon proved wrong!

O'Donnell, on hs second return from the rear, called in German fighters. When
asked if he thought they would attack the question was answered a moment
later
when a 20MM exploded under Eddie's seat."

-- "Ridgewell's Flying Fortresses" pp. 29-30 by Ron Mackay

I don't see anything that contradicts what Caidin wrote, although there is no
mention of kills by the pilot. In fact, the story is even more amazing that
Caidin let on.

But I think the onus in on Mr. Gustin to substantiate his claims or apolgize.

And the serial. number on "TS" was 23211

I do have a picture of TS and I'll post the URL later.

Walt


Now that's what I call a fun mission. (sheesh)




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Now that's what I call a fun mission. (sheesh)

Art,

I'd suggest that colliding with an FW-190 at a closing speed of 450-500 MPH can
ruin your whole day.

Of course so can colliding with a B-17.

What prompted me to mention this incident that so raised Mr. Gustin's ire was a
thread in which the durability of the Lancaster was being put forward.

After I posted TS' story, that thread sort of died out.

Walt

Walt

Subject: Mr. Gustin, Mr Caidin, and B-17's
From: (WalterM140)
Date: 4/16/04 7:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

Now that's what I call a fun mission. (sheesh)

Art,

I'd suggest that colliding with an FW-190 at a closing speed of 450-500 MPH
can
ruin your whole day.

..
But that still leaves the whole evening right?



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

I wrote:

But I think the onus in on Mr. Gustin to substantiate his claims or
apolgize.

I see nothing to apologize for.

I do. Near as I can tell, Caidin got it right on. A B-17 survived a head on
collision with an FW-190.

Note that two Fw 190s have become three in Caidin's story, that
Lt. Weniger makes no mention of Caidin's "blast of fire that
destroyed two of the fighters and evidently killed the pilot
of the third."

Lt. Weniger says the gunners were firing at "max rate." He neither confirms
nor denies any kills. The picture of "TS" on the URL I have provided shows 4
kills. You haven't -refuted- what Caidin said at all. And unless you can
find a source that flatly states that the gunners on "TS" made no claims, you
won't.

Here's the URL:

http://members.aol.com/walterm140/harrisb17ts.jpg

Now, anyone who checks the URL will see that the prop was ripped off the B-17
just as Caidin said. Lt. Weniger says that the engine of the FW departed over
the top of the # 4 engine. The # 3 engine was heavily involved, as the photo
on my URL will show.

There are numerous examples of Caidin's unreliability as a
historical source... His rendering of the "Italian P-38" story,

Show it. You sure missed the boat on the B-17/FW-190 collision story.

his flawed account of the development of the Bf 109

Show it.

his
acceptance of the claim by a colorful American ex-mercenary
that he had once fought an arranged dogfight with Bruno Mussolini, and so on
and on and on...

Show it.

Check the archives for
this newsgroup, you will find plenty of examples.

No, it's your assertion. You show it.


In summary, I still say: You can't use Caidin's writing in
evidence, even anecdotal evidence, if you don't find a more
reliable source to back it up; or, more likely, to correct it.

It didn't take me long to corroborate Caidin's story re the B-17/FW-190
collision. He did give a date: 7/14/43. I found reference to this in
Freeman's "Mighty Eighth War Diary."

Hell, I even found a picture of the B-17 in question!

Now it's your turn.

I don't suggest that Caidin was correct in the Italian P-38 story, or any of
the others you name. I don't have enough data.

But I know as sure as little green apples that YOU were wrong in doubting that
a B-17 did survive a head-on collision with an FW-190. And Martin Caidin was
right.

And the serial. number on "TS" was 23211

I suppose that must be 42-3211. I havent't yet found any
information on it.

Luckily for you, you can see a picture of the aircraft on the URL I've
provided. The serial number is clearly visible in the photo. Lt Ed Manchester,
the "Eddie" of Lt. Weniger's story, is second from left. He was the pilot. The
photo was taken 7/15/43.

This photo is from "Ridgewell's Flying Fortresses" by Ron Mackay.

Walt

I wrote:

I do. Near as I can tell, Caidin got it right on. A B-17 survived
a head on collision with an FW-190.


Mr. Gustin:

1. If Caidin (who, probably, was a far more intelligent
and rational person than you) had just written that
a B-17 survived a collision with a German fighter,
I would not necessarily have expressed much doubt;
although I would *still* have insisted on a better source. Head-on attacks
were frequent; the risk of
collision high; and the possibility that a B-17 would
survive the collision could certainly not be excluded,
on condition that the fighter hit the bomber with its wings, not its
fuselage, which would probably send
it cartwheeling over the B-17, which is what seems to
have happened on this occasion.


Well, this FW hit the B-17 with enough force to separate it from its engine.
That's a lot of force.

I have certainly seen enough evidence to know that Caidin was very often fast
and loose with the facts. I hadn't known that before, I'm glad to know it now.
The story about the Italian P-38 was especially distorted. I appreciate you
bringing all this to my attention, really.

On the other hand, the only discrepancy I've seen conclusively in the collision
story is that Caidin says three fighters, Lt. Weniger indcates only two. Some
FW's could have been shot down by "TS's" gunners. Weniger doesn't say.

Walt

Emmanuel Gustin wrote in message . ..
(WalterM140) wrote in message ...


(snip)

And the serial. number on "TS" was 23211

I suppose that must be 42-3211. I havent't yet found any
information on it.

From The B-17 Flying Fortress Story, Freeman and Osborne,
it has basic histories of all B-17s.

42-3211 delivered Cheyenne 24 March 1943, assigned to 535
squadron 381 bomb group 15 June 1943, collided with Fw190
when returning from strike on Amiens 14 July 1943, crash
landed Manston airfield, written off.

Mighty 8th War Diary entry for 14 July 1943, "381BG collided with
Fw190 but managed to return and crash land Manston airfield,
crew safe." The book records the 381st lost 1 bomber and had
another 2 written off.

So the B-17 stayed in the air long enough to do a landing at
Manston, and was then written off, so survived is being defined
as making it back to crash land, and not fly again.

Head on is being defined as part of the Fw190 hitting part of
the B-17 while travelling in a near opposite direction, it is not
a fuselage to fuselage hit, nor the Fw190 fuselage being what
hit first, and it looks like the Fw190 engine never hit the bomber.

There are examples of mid air collisions in WWII where one of the
aircraft survived, this includes heavy bombers hitting each other,
the usual result of a mid air collision was destruction, but not always.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

In summary, I still say: You can't use Caidin's writing in
evidence, even anecdotal evidence, if you don't find a more
reliable source to back it up; or, more likely, to correct it.


I agree with that statement - Caidin did most of his writing in the hayday of
postwar aviation writing, before any archives had opened up to help sort the
facts from the "really neat stories". Have a read through his various B-17
books and see how many times he mentions UFOs! Funny how those stories aren't
mentioned in other books about the same events.

I *loved* Caidin's books - but I agree with Mr. Gustin in this regard, MC just
plain loved a good story, even if he couldn't provide backup information.
Saburo Sakai wouldn't autograph Caidin's first version of his biography, for
accuracy reasons.


And the serial. number on "TS" was 23211


As EM pointed out, that's not an accurate serial number for any B-17.

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR

Its always better to lose AN engine, than THE engine.

And the serial. number on "TS" was 23211


As EM pointed out, that's not an accurate serial number for any B-17.

That is the serial number as it appears both in the photo I have of the
aircraft and also the way it is recorded in the unit history of the 381st BG.
That's why I reported it the way I did. But you are correct in that it is not
a complete S/N.

Walt