Motorgliders (long)

(JJ Sinclair) wrote in message ...
Good letter Soarin,
You clearly understand the motorglider issues. I would suggest one change to
your position, though.

If you want to compete with non motored gliders in
competition, at a minimum you should.

Launch by aerotow
relight by aerotow
be scored to the last turn completed if motor is used
land at the airport to get that airports bonus points

If the penalty for using the engine, is to be landed at the last achieved turn
point, then nothing has changed, except the MG can't claim a constructive
land-out. At the start of a marginal glide, the MG might be thinking; "Might as
well give it a try, I'm only going to lose 20 miles or so, if I don't find lift
and start up my engine."

Under my proposal, the MG would face the exact SAME decision that un-powered
sailplane pilots must make. i.e, "If I start this shaky glide, I may be forced
to land in a field, or worse." He would be in the same situation that the rest
of us are facing, " I may try a shaky glide, but if I don't find something, I
MUST land to get my distance points. I can land at a designated airfield and
get distance points + 25 bonus points OR I can start this shaky glide, but if
it doesn't work, I will have to find a place to land. If I crank up the
Put-Put, I will get ZERO points for all my work today."
The penalty for engine use could be a percentage of the daily winners score,
say 30%, but I think it must be substantial, or taking a chance and pulling it
off, with the engine as a back-up will continue to be an attractive option in
the minds of some MG pilots.

JJ Sinclair


I flew 15M one year. One day had a very marginal third leg on an AST.
Most of the non-MGs made it in - barely. I didn't stand a chance given
my high wing loading and very scratchy, weak thermals on that leg and
ended up landing at the last TP. I believe this more realistically
represents the situation faced by most MGs (the turbos would have a
much smaller disadvantage). Of course, you don't care when the MGs
have the disadvantage.

I believe what you are proposing is, to paraphrase, "trying to kill a
gnat with a sledge hammer". Furthermore, CDs can set additional safety
rules for situations such as the one you keep reciting, i.e. no
restarts in a particular zone of unlandable terrain.

I agree that on self launching MGs should shut down in a designated
release area and not be permitted to sniff for thermals. That said,
trying to shut down and retract an engine while centering a marginal
thermal is next to impossible. The sink rate with the engine out and
shut down, while in a 45 degree bank, goes thru the roof! I find it
easier to go thru the cool down, retract process while on a glide to a
gaggle of gliders.

Tom Seim
DG-400
Richland, WA

In article ,
says...
At any rate, them's the rules and we don't get to make up a few more as the
contest goes along. While your in there, be sure to not overlook the one that
says, ALL LAUNCHES WILL BE BY AERO-TOW.

From the SSA sanction application form:

"Will any waiver of SSA Competition Rules be required? _______ (If
yes, attach a detailed explanation.)"

So, waivers may be requested as part of the contest sanctioning
procedure. When granted, "The Rules" are amended for that contest, so we
have a different set of "The Rules", which all entrants in the contest
will be required to observe.

In the past, Ephrata (Region 8) has been granted a waiver to allow self-
launching by motorgliders. We typically have 5 or more motorglider
pilots from our Region that wish to enter our Regional contest, and
these pilots prefer to self-launch. The contest management likes having
the extra entrants, and especially ones that don't require bringing in
an expensive towplane from somewhere else.


--
-------
Eric Greenwell USA

(JJ Sinclair) wrote in message ...
Tom wrote. CDs can set additional safety
rules for situations such as the one you keep reciting, i.e. no
restarts in a particular zone of unlandable terrain.

Come on Tom, the CD isn't free to make up rules. That's why we have a very
thick book of rules that we must follow.


I agree that on self launching MGs should shut down in a designated
release area and not be permitted to sniff for thermals

Once again, Tom, you really need to read those rules. I believe I mentioned in
an earlier post that you signed the entry form that said, I HAVE READ AND
UNDERSTAND THE RULES, to which, you answered, "That doesn't make any sense."
Now, I wasn't sure if you meant the rules didn't make and sense, or your
reading them didn't make any sense.

At any rate, them's the rules and we don't get to make up a few more as the
contest goes along. While your in there, be sure to not overlook the one that
says, ALL LAUNCHES WILL BE BY AERO-TOW.


JJ Sinclair

Once again, you have come out with a non sequitur. Have you checked
out the sanctioned contest application form? Probably not because
there is an item on it to request a rule waiver:

Will any waiver of SSA Competition Rules be required? _______ (If
yes, attach a detailed explanation.)

What we are talking about is a waiver on the aero-tow only rule and
how launches should be conducted if the waiver is granted. If the
waiver isn't granted the rest of the discussion is moot.

JJ, if you are going to quote me at least you could quote me
accurately. I did not say "That doesn't make any sense", I said:

"This, simply, doesn't make any sense"

meaning your statement doesn't make sense, not the rule ("this" is
present tense, "that" is past tense).

Tom

Eric wrote

So, waivers may be requested as part of the contest sanctioning
procedure.

Sounds easy, doesn't it? Ephrata would prefer to let motorgliders self-launch.
Why not? Well, let me tell you WHY NOT.

1. Some self-launching MG's don't feel it is necessary to go to the designated
sailplane release area.

2. There is nothing in the rules to varify that the MG's went to the release
area or to check on the altitude they climbed to.

3. Ephrata didn't even bother to get a waiver last year, but felt their
home-spun Airborn-Relight procedure could also continue to be used. (Don't look
for it in the rules, its not there)

4. This in not normally a *biggie*, but MG's that self-launch are allowed to
take off, right after the tow plane before their turn, has taken off. The rest
of us must wait 10 minutes for our tow plane to return. That's 10 minutes they
can use to get away on a day that's dying (overcast moving in, etc.)

5. Out rules have been carefully crafted over many years to MAKE THE CONTEST
FAIR TO ALL WHO ENTER.

Why do I care? Because its FLAT NOT FAIR for the rest of us. When I'm
struggling right after I release (in the release area) to find a thermal, I
expect to see some of my class down there with me, scratching up a thermal.
When I must Relight, I expect the MG's to Relight right along with me, NOT just
fly within 1 mile of home and crank her up again.
As I said in my letter to the Rules Committee, that started this thread. "I
request that waivers to allow self-launch NOT BE GRANTED, because its not fair
to the non-powered contestants."
Just JJ Whining again,




JJ Sinclair

In article ,
says...
Eric wrote

So, waivers may be requested as part of the contest sanctioning
procedure.

Sounds easy, doesn't it? Ephrata would prefer to let motorgliders self-launch.
Why not? Well, let me tell you WHY NOT.

1. Some self-launching MG's don't feel it is necessary to go to the designated
sailplane release area.

They will do this at the next Region 8 contest. We're ("we" includes
almost everyone that has participated in thread, I think) all agreed
this should be done, and have been agreed for this entire discussion.

2. There is nothing in the rules to varify that the MG's went to the release
area or to check on the altitude they climbed to.

They will do this at the next Region 8 contest. We're ("we" includes
almost everyone that has participated in thread, I think) all agreed
this should be done, and have been agreed for this entire discussion.


3. Ephrata didn't even bother to get a waiver last year,

They will do this at the next Region 8 contest. We're ("we" includes
almost everyone that has participated in thread, I think) all agreed
this should be done, and have been agreed for this entire discussion.

but felt their
home-spun Airborn-Relight procedure could also continue to be used. (Don't look
for it in the rules, its not there)

They will do this at the next Region 8 contest. We're ("we" includes
almost everyone that has participated in thread, I think) all agreed
this should be done, and have been agreed for this entire discussion.

4. This in not normally a *biggie*, but MG's that self-launch are allowed to
take off, right after the tow plane before their turn, has taken off. The rest
of us must wait 10 minutes for our tow plane to return. That's 10 minutes they
can use to get away on a day that's dying (overcast moving in, etc.)

The rules require all gliders to be launched within an hour. As long as
this is accomplished, the contest is following "The Rules" (the
unamended ones), which is what you have been requesting.


5. Out rules have been carefully crafted over many years to MAKE THE CONTEST
FAIR TO ALL WHO ENTER.

There is a lot of "stretch" in the concept of fair. Is the Sports Class
"fair", with it's huge disparity of performance? Is it "fair" for one
pilot to have an ASW 27 while some other poor schmuck has to fly a PIK
20 in the 15 Meter class? Is it "fair" to limit the Standard Class to a
9 pound wing loading when some have gliders that can go to 10 pounds?

"Fairness" is not the only thing we attempt to achieve with our contest
rules, but also safety and participation. In Region 8, we attempt to
increase participation by allowing self-launch, and it seems to be
working. We had more motorgliders in our contest than any other contest
in the country, including all of Region 11's contests combined, even
though Region 11 has far more motorgliders than Region 8.

Why do I care? Because its FLAT NOT FAIR for the rest of us. When I'm
struggling right after I release (in the release area) to find a thermal, I
expect to see some of my class down there with me, scratching up a thermal.
When I must Relight, I expect the MG's to Relight right along with me, NOT just
fly within 1 mile of home and crank her up again.
As I said in my letter to the Rules Committee, that started this thread. "I
request that waivers to allow self-launch NOT BE GRANTED, because its not fair
to the non-powered contestants."

A lot of people in Region 8 don't think it's fair for a narrow view of
"fairness" to keep us from making our contests attractive to the pilots
in our Region. If a waiver is granted, this will be announced so all
interested pilots can decide if the contest is one they wish to attend.
--
-------
Eric Greenwell USA

Eric,
If a waiver isn't granted (and I don't think it should be) let me suggest that
you take your 10 motorgliders and have a motorglider class. It would probably
be the biggest class in the contest. You could;

+ Self-Launch and drive around until you find a thermal.

+ Perform Airborne-Relights.

+ Get scored to the point of engine start.

+ Get landing bonus points, for not landing.

In short, you could get EVERYTHING you are asking for in FAI classes. I see it
as a WIN-WIN situation.
JJ Sinclair

4. This in not normally a *biggie*, but MG's that self-launch are allowed to
take off, right after the tow plane before their turn, has taken off. The rest
of us must wait 10 minutes for our tow plane to return. That's 10 minutes they
can use to get away on a day that's dying (overcast moving in, etc.)


Speaking of being fair, why don't you fairly state the real situation?
Region 8 had 22 gliders being towed, which took less than 60 minutes
every day. This averages to less than 3 min per launch, a far cry from
your estimate of 10. Furthermore, we were held for at least 1 min
after the glider ahead of us launched. This makes your "advantage"
about 90 sec, not much of an advantage in my book. But, what the hell,
I would be willing to wait that additional 90 sec if that would make
you happy? Would it (I very much doubt it)?

Tom

BTW: Adding that hold time would increase the total launch time, and
the rules (remember them?) require launching the field in under 60
min. This could push the launch over the edge, forcing the organizers
to bring in another tow plane.

You really got to read those rules, Tom.
They say, all sailplanes in EACH CLASS should be launched in 1 hour, not he
whole contest in 1 hour.

You motorglidres launch 1 minute after the guy in front of you, Us un-powered
slobs MUST wait for a Pawnee (Big ships) that took an average of 10 minutes to
come back from their last (big ship) delivery to the designated release area.
Do you know where that is? Anyway, How can you add in 10 motorgliders that
self-launched, into your total time between aero-tows? As usual, you MG's want
it both ways. Why don't you just fly a MG class? You can make up your own
rules, as you go along, Go anywhere, do anything, No need to worry about those
stupid FAI rules. You can be free-at -last, free-at-last.
JJ Sinclair

"Eric Greenwell" wrote...
Region 11 must have at least 40 motorgliders, but only 10% entered the 4
contests held in Region 11.

Region 11 has well in excess of 100 motorgliders...

Is Region 11 pleased with this level of participation?

Obviously, we'd like more gliders to participate, whether they have motors or
not...

Are the pilots in Region 11 pleased with the choices available to them
at their contests?

We takes what we gets...

Perhaps Region 11 should consider changing what they offer. Since most
of the motorgliders are a good fit in the 18 Meter class, I suggest
Region 11 add the 18 Meter class to the contest. Request a waiver to
allow self-launching in this class only, using the restrictions we've
discussed here. Promote this class, along with others, but emphasize it
will allow self-launch with appropriate restrictions. Mention that self-
launchers won't pay tow fees unless they take a tow.

I'd rather fly my LAK in 18M class, and signed up for the offered 18M class at
Minden. I believe exactly one other person (with a motorglider) signed up for
18M. So, we both ended up in 15M. There just isn't a whole lot of interest in
the 18M class...

If this idea is successful, the 18 meter class will have 10+ entrants
(mostly motorgliders, but perhaps some unpowered gliders with their 18
meter extensions), while "stealing" only a few from the rest of the
classes, for a net gain of 5+ entrants.

Most of the motorglider pilots in the area, quite simply, do not appear to be
interested in flying in contests...

Now, that's what I call a "win-win" situation.

Only if the motorglider guys want to play...

Marc

Good idea, Eric.
But, I doubt it will work down here in region 11. We only had 12 in our 2003
Regionals, 6 in 15 meter and 6 in Standard, No Open or Sports. Good luck in
getting an 18 meter regionals. The minden Soaring Club had bid the 2005, 18
meter nationals, though. Come on down, I volunteered to CD it :)
Region 11 has well in excess of 100 motorgliders...

Is Region 11 pleased with this level of participation?

Obviously, we'd like more gliders to participate, whether they have motors or
not...

Are the pilots in Region 11 pleased with the choices available to them
at their contests?

We takes what we gets...

Perhaps Region 11 should consider changing what they offer. Since most
of the motorgliders are a good fit in the 18 Meter class, I suggest
Region 11 add the 18 Meter class to the contest. Request a waiver to
allow self-launching in this class only, using the restrictions we've
discussed here. Promote this class, along with others, but emphasize it
will allow self-launch with appropriate restrictions. Mention that self-
launchers won't pay tow fees unless they take a tow.

I'd rather fly my LAK in 18M class, and signed up for the offered 18M class
at
Minden. I believe exactly one other person (with a motorglider) signed up
for
18M. So, we both ended up in 15M. There just isn't a whole lot of interest
in
the 18M class...

If this idea is successful, the 18 meter class will have 10+ entrants
(mostly motorgliders, but perhaps some unpowered gliders with their 18
meter extensions), while "stealing" only a few from the rest of the
classes, for a net gain of 5+ entrants.

Most of the motorglider pilots in the area, quite simply, do not appear to be
interested in flying in contests...

Now, that's what I call a "win-win" situation.

Only if the motorglider guys want to play...

Marc


JJ Sinclair