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#131
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Future Club Training Gliders
At 16:03 20 September 2010, John Smith wrote:
I followed this discussion for a while now and frankly, I don't understand all the fuss. I have never been shown any paritcular landing attitude, because this would be meaningless as every glider is different. I've just been told to flare that beast, and keep it flying as long as possible until it ceases to fly. Ths means increasing the angle of attack as the speed decays until the glider falls out of the air. Properly built gliders will do so in a two point attitude, some more accurate, some less accurate. That's all I've been taught and that's how I've been doing it for years. Frankly, I couldn't even tell you the landing attitude. At last a sensible post on this subject. The way all gliders should be landed. |
#132
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Quote:
Colin Last edited by Ventus_a : September 20th 10 at 10:19 PM. Reason: updated info |
#133
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Future Club Training Gliders
On Mon, 20 Sep 2010 09:18:04 -0700, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Sep 20, 11:38Â*pm, Martin Gregorie wrote: On Sun, 19 Sep 2010 22:57:15 -0700, Bruce Hoult wrote: Incidentally, someone landed their Cirrus on a suburban street here on Sunday morning. They reportedly deliberately used the poles on either side of a pedestrian crossing to slow down. I believe my instructors mentioned tree trunks in this context, but whatever... My cousin, who lives in Waikanae, said it was a turbulent, gusty day but none of the reports mention the weather. How would you rate it? The entire country was covered by a massive storm centered to the south of the South Island with strong westerly conditions covering the whole 2000 km (north/south) of the country. If you could get high somewhere it could well have been a record-setting day. Some supermarkets and a stadium in Southland collapsed due to the weight of snow on them. Around Auckland and Hamilton trees were coming down and houses losing roofs and a lot of people lost electricity. In the middle of the North Island there were a lot of slips on to roads. It wasn't so bad around Wellington and was, fundamentally, a fine day, but windy. I wasn't at the club but I'd expect that it was probably gusting over 30 knots. Those are mostly fairly benign conditions at Paraparaumu with smooth air coming off the ocean and on to the hills 3 or 4 km inland, and the sea cliffs further south. The only real problem is Kapiti Island, 5 km offshore, which produces wave which can either reinforce the ridge lift or else dump on to it, and can also generate a fair bit of rotor in semi-random places. Thanks for the expansion. BTW, I see that the club sold off Golf Zulu. When did that happen? -- martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org | |
#134
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Future Club Training Gliders
So you are saying that the proper landing technique for a 2-33 is to jam the stick forward? Or only this technique in off field landings? I was taught that the skid is used for braking *only* as a last resort to prevent running into the (inevitable here in the northeast US) trees at the end of the runway. Following an otherwise low energy landing, of course. Tony |
#135
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Future Club Training Gliders
On Sep 20, 10:49*am, Kevin Christner
wrote: OK.....But the same BASIC technique works for all these gliders............LOW ENERGY LANDING....... Cookie A proper low energy landing involves a two point (or arguably tail first) touchdown. *You cannot teach this in a 2-33. *The euro's laugh at us because a not insignificant amount of owners of the newest glass ships still can't do a proper low energy landing. If you feel the need to comment so strongly to this thread you may wish to reveal your real identity. *Otherwise we'll have to assume you are Lennie the Lurker (and if you don't know who this is, you haven't been in soaring, or at least on RAS, long enough to comment on these issues) I agree that a proper low energy landing in MOST gliders is two point or there about. Although the 2-33 does not usually land two point, I still can, do, and have taught low energy landings in 2-33, and the same techniques carry on to other gliders, with minimum fuss...I do not allow my students in the 2-33 to do "fly it on landings". It has been my experience that those who land a 2-33 properly, land any glider properly. I have also seen glider pilots who never flew a 2-33 but still manage to land improperly. Its not the glider....its the pilot!! Owners of the newest glass ships who can't land them properly, should seek additional training....but this is a "pilot problem" not an "aircraft problem". My whole point is in response to the post that implied that a guy wrecked a Grob, because he learned in a 2-33.......This is a far fetched conclusion at best...........The guy wrecked the Grob because he didn't know how to land, period, regardless of the aircraft. I'm not a huge fan of the 2-33......but please don't blame the poor glider for things that are not its fault....... BTW.....I've seen some of those "Euros" fly ........Some are great pilots, but they have their share of pilots who can't land too............ As for your second paragraph: My name is Bob Cook, everyone who knows me, knows me as "Cookie"......To anybody who doesn't know me, it doesn't matter squat what my name is.......Now if you want to comapare "years in gliding" or hours, or experience or whatever, we can go tit for tat........but that is meaningless.......... Cookie |
#136
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Future Club Training Gliders
On Sep 20, 10:42*am, Kevin Christner
wrote: The 2-33 will withstand less than perfect landings by beginners because it is designed to do so as a TRAINER. *We are *all allowed to make mistakes.........The idea is for the student / instructor to work out all these problems early in the program. Once consistant good landings are made in the 2-33 the pilot can then easily adapt to any glider. *If poor landing technique is tolerated in the 2-33 then the less forgiving gliders will show this defeciency. But this is all the more arguement for the 2-33 as a trainer, and not using Grob or ASK as a trainer....... Cookie First, I don't see any "argument" there for using the 2-33 as a trainer. *The 2-33 flies differently than just about anything else out there. *Beyond basic stick and rudder skills, it doesn't prepare the pilot to fly anything else. *The rest of the world seems to be able to use more modern gliders safely and efficiently without regular damage - they also seem to produce better pilots, at least from world championship results. Teaching low energy landings in a 2-33 can be a bit of a trick. Because the tail is so high relative to the main wheel there is a tendency to go "ground seeking" with the tail leading to the glider stalling before the anything touches down and a nice heavy thud. Hence, very few true low energy landings are taught in a 2-33 (somewhere in the low 30's vs. right around 40). *This also doesn't prepare for proper 2-points - the angle of attack to 2-point being much lower in a ASK-21 or similar. Another thread states the 2-33 works fine because eventually *some* go on to fly glass, *few* go on to fly X-C, and *fewer* fly a contest. Again this does not address whether the 2-33 properly prepares pilots for the types of gliders they will likely be flying - even the author admits that they must first "transition" (translation: retrain) to the ASK-21. *This whole process could just be skipped without the potential for developing all the sloppy habits that almost come from pilots trained in 2-33's. The only "argument" in this either thread is based on price point. And I won't argue with that one. When only about 4% of the SSA members in this country ever fly in a contest, the idea of needing high performance trainers seems a bit off point, those who wish to fly contest, more power too you, the other 96% don't and enjoy or flights just as much. |
#137
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Future Club Training Gliders
When only about 4% of the SSA members in this country ever fly in a contest, the idea of needing high performance trainers seems a bit off point, those who wish to fly contest, more power too you, the other 96% don't and enjoy or flights just as much. Thats not the point thats trying to be made here. Just because someone doesn't go anywhere doesn't mean they don't need to be properly prepared to fly the wide range of gliders they can buy and fly, on their own, with no additional requirement beyond a PPL. It appears about 60-70% of the CFIG commentators would not recommend the 2-33 for ab-initio training, and 30%-40% would. Out of the later group, some seem to like the 2-33 more on price point than on its training qualities. Everyone is welcome to their own opinion, and I don't think anyone is suggesting you can't have fun flying a 2-33. That doesn't mean the glider has all the qualities many of us would like to see, and I think thats the point thats trying to be made. I think this thread has been hashed out enough. I'm signing off before more tomatoes fly my way. |
#138
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Future Club Training Gliders
On Sep 21, 10:05*am, Martin Gregorie
wrote: BTW, I see that the club sold off Golf Zulu. When did that happen? That happened about three years ago when a pilot visiting from the UK wrote it off in a river bed. |
#139
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Future Club Training Gliders
On Mon, 20 Sep 2010 22:21:15 -0700, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Sep 21, 10:05Â*am, Martin Gregorie wrote: BTW, I see that the club sold off Golf Zulu. When did that happen? That happened about three years ago when a pilot visiting from the UK wrote it off in a river bed. Bad news, but at least it was repairable: I see its crossed the ranges to Masterton. -- martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org | |
#140
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Future Club Training Gliders
On Sep 20, 5:57*pm, Bruce Hoult wrote:
Incidentally, someone landed their Cirrus on a suburban street here on Sunday morning. They reportedly deliberately used the poles on either side of a pedestrian crossing to slow down. I believe my instructors mentioned tree trunks in this context, but whatever... http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/glid...ectid=10674749 Another article a couple of days later: http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post...was-his-second |
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