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Purists are from Pluto, Motorgliderists are from Mars - #2



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 10th 21, 11:22 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,939
Default Purists are from Pluto, Motorgliderists are from Mars - #2

Didn't make it to a new thread on the first attempt...
-----------------------------------------

I moved this to a new thread, as it seemed to go in a different direction than Bob's original
conversation starter.
-----------------------------------------

Guy Acheson wrote on 4/9/2021 8:51 PM:

There is no way to compare a pilot with an engine to a pilot without an engine.

We (you excepted, of course) do it all the time - easy peasy.

Completely different world view.

Not the ones I know, and after 26 seasons with a motorglider, I know a LOT of motorglider pilots.

Completely different set of choices regarding difficult weather.

See above.

Not on the same planet.

All the motorglider pilots I know started in unpowered gliders, then after many years, switched
to motorgliders, which they then flew mostly like they did before. Having a motor can encourage
taking more risks with the weather with some pilots, but not the "off the charts" extent you
seem to think. You can sometimes see similar behavior in an unpowered pilot that has a great
crew eager to do a retrieve. Henry Combs was the epitome of this behavior, more adventurous
than almost any other pilot (motorized or not) I've known, but there were/are number of them in
the Crystal Squadron following in his wing wake, and all without motors.

My view is most motorglider pilots don't take much advantage of the exploring that is more
available to motorglider pilots; that is, they continue to fly like they did when they were
"purists", and are just happy to have a launch when desired, and getting home in time for dinner.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
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  #2  
Old April 11th 21, 12:22 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 281
Default Purists are from Pluto, Motorgliderists are from Mars - #2

On Saturday, April 10, 2021 at 6:22:43 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Didn't make it to a new thread on the first attempt...
-----------------------------------------

I moved this to a new thread, as it seemed to go in a different direction than Bob's original
conversation starter.
-----------------------------------------

Guy Acheson wrote on 4/9/2021 8:51 PM:

There is no way to compare a pilot with an engine to a pilot without an engine.

We (you excepted, of course) do it all the time - easy peasy.

Completely different world view.

Not the ones I know, and after 26 seasons with a motorglider, I know a LOT of motorglider pilots.

Completely different set of choices regarding difficult weather.

See above.

Not on the same planet.

All the motorglider pilots I know started in unpowered gliders, then after many years, switched
to motorgliders, which they then flew mostly like they did before. Having a motor can encourage
taking more risks with the weather with some pilots, but not the "off the charts" extent you
seem to think. You can sometimes see similar behavior in an unpowered pilot that has a great
crew eager to do a retrieve. Henry Combs was the epitome of this behavior, more adventurous
than almost any other pilot (motorized or not) I've known, but there were/are number of them in
the Crystal Squadron following in his wing wake, and all without motors.

My view is most motorglider pilots don't take much advantage of the exploring that is more
available to motorglider pilots; that is, they continue to fly like they did when they were
"purists", and are just happy to have a launch when desired, and getting home in time for dinner.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

I guess being in the Kuiper belt is not that bad. I guess us purist have a distinct habit of staying away from home. I guess next year we will name or gathering the Kuiper Safari.
  #3  
Old April 11th 21, 04:32 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,939
Default Purists are from Pluto, Motorgliderists are from Mars - #2

wrote on 4/10/2021 4:22 PM:
On Saturday, April 10, 2021 at 6:22:43 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Didn't make it to a new thread on the first attempt...
-----------------------------------------

I moved this to a new thread, as it seemed to go in a different direction than Bob's original
conversation starter.
-----------------------------------------

Guy Acheson wrote on 4/9/2021 8:51 PM:

There is no way to compare a pilot with an engine to a pilot without an engine.

We (you excepted, of course) do it all the time - easy peasy.

Completely different world view.

Not the ones I know, and after 26 seasons with a motorglider, I know a LOT of motorglider pilots.

Completely different set of choices regarding difficult weather.

See above.

Not on the same planet.

All the motorglider pilots I know started in unpowered gliders, then after many years, switched
to motorgliders, which they then flew mostly like they did before. Having a motor can encourage
taking more risks with the weather with some pilots, but not the "off the charts" extent you
seem to think. You can sometimes see similar behavior in an unpowered pilot that has a great
crew eager to do a retrieve. Henry Combs was the epitome of this behavior, more adventurous
than almost any other pilot (motorized or not) I've known, but there were/are number of them in
the Crystal Squadron following in his wing wake, and all without motors.

My view is most motorglider pilots don't take much advantage of the exploring that is more
available to motorglider pilots; that is, they continue to fly like they did when they were
"purists", and are just happy to have a launch when desired, and getting home in time for dinner.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

I guess being in the Kuiper belt is not that bad. I guess us purist have a distinct habit of staying away from home. I guess next year we will name or gathering the Kuiper Safari.


Don't read too much into the Pluto part: I just wanted some alliteration - Pluto/Purist,
Mars/Motorglider. :^)


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
  #4  
Old April 11th 21, 05:10 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,939
Default Purists are from Pluto, Motorgliderists are from Mars - #2

Eric Greenwell wrote on 4/10/2021 8:32 PM:
I guess being in the Kuiper belt is not that bad. I guess us purist have a distinct habit of
staying away from home. I guess next year we will name or gathering the Kuiper Safari.


Don't read too much into the Pluto part: I just wanted some alliteration - Pluto/Purist,
Mars/Motorglider.* :^)


I suggest "Kuiper Kamp" to keep the alliteration going.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

  #5  
Old April 11th 21, 01:19 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
BobWa43
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 42
Default Purists are from Pluto, Motorgliderists are from Mars - #2

On Sunday, April 11, 2021 at 12:10:18 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Eric Greenwell wrote on 4/10/2021 8:32 PM:
I guess being in the Kuiper belt is not that bad. I guess us purist have a distinct habit of
staying away from home. I guess next year we will name or gathering the Kuiper Safari.


Don't read too much into the Pluto part: I just wanted some alliteration - Pluto/Purist,
Mars/Motorglider. :^)

I suggest "Kuiper Kamp" to keep the alliteration going.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

Do I think that having or not having an engine is a predictor of piloting skills or testosterone levels? No, absolutely not. Do I think that having an engine provides a significant advantage in scoring OLC points? Absolutely, Yes. I have nothing against motor gliders, particularly the self launching variety,(I would like to own one except for the expense) but you have to admit that the sustainers have only one purpose and that is to save a flight that would otherwise end in landing out. How can anyone deny that this is a huge psychological advantage on the average OLC flight where there is nothing at stake but bragging rights. Bottom line, motor gliders should compete against motor gliders on OLC.
  #6  
Old April 11th 21, 01:54 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,939
Default Purists are from Pluto, Motorgliderists are from Mars - #2

BobWa43 wrote on 4/11/2021 5:19 AM:
On Sunday, April 11, 2021 at 12:10:18 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Eric Greenwell wrote on 4/10/2021 8:32 PM:
I guess being in the Kuiper belt is not that bad. I guess us purist have a distinct habit of
staying away from home. I guess next year we will name or gathering the Kuiper Safari.

Don't read too much into the Pluto part: I just wanted some alliteration - Pluto/Purist,
Mars/Motorglider. :^)

I suggest "Kuiper Kamp" to keep the alliteration going.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

Do I think that having or not having an engine is a predictor of piloting skills or testosterone levels? No, absolutely not. Do I think that having an engine provides a significant advantage in scoring OLC points? Absolutely, Yes. I have nothing against motor gliders, particularly the self launching variety,(I would like to own one except for the expense) but you have to admit that the sustainers have only one purpose and that is to save a flight that would otherwise end in landing out. How can anyone deny that this is a huge psychological advantage on the average OLC flight where there is nothing at stake but bragging rights. Bottom line, motor gliders should compete against motor gliders on OLC.

I had flown 2000 hours in unpowered sailplanes when I switched to a motorglider, and I did not
feel I had a huge psychological advantage. And when I fly at the Parowan motorglider event each
year, somehow my "huge psychological advantage" isn't enough to keep pilots like Rami Yanetz
and Thorsten Streple from clobbering me on the OLC! There is some advantage, but it's not huge,
or even big.

So, of all the factors that go into an OLC score, why do you focus only on the motor? The place
has a much larger effect, I think. Who has the greater advantage: the sustainer pilot launching
from Seminole lake, or the pilot launching from Ridge Soaring on a good ridge day? Or a pilot
in South Africa?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
  #7  
Old April 11th 21, 03:39 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,601
Default Purists are from Pluto, Motorgliderists are from Mars - #2

Your OLC (or FAI for that matter) flight ends when you start the engine
so the only advantage is that of not having to wait for a trailer. I
recall a flight in a friend's ASW-24E where I flew far into
deteriorating lift. No worries! I'll just start the engine and fly
back to the lift. It started just fine and then quit within minutes due
to lack of fuel. Had to drive around Pike's Peak to get back to the
airport.

In the case of the Stemme, I don't have a trailer and, though it's never
failed me, I won't trust the engine to save me; it's strictly for launch
or travel to another location.

Dan
5J

On 4/11/21 6:54 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
BobWa43 wrote on 4/11/2021 5:19 AM:
On Sunday, April 11, 2021 at 12:10:18 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Eric Greenwell wrote on 4/10/2021 8:32 PM:
I guess being in the Kuiper belt is not that bad. I guess us purist
have a distinct habit of
staying away from home. I guess next year we will name or gathering
the Kuiper Safari.

Don't read too much into the Pluto part: I just wanted some
alliteration - Pluto/Purist,
Mars/Motorglider. :^)
I suggest "Kuiper Kamp" to keep the alliteration going.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

Do I think that having or not having an engine is a predictor of
piloting skills or testosterone levels?* No, absolutely not.* Do I
think that having an engine provides a significant advantage in
scoring OLC points?* Absolutely, Yes.* I have nothing against motor
gliders, particularly the self launching variety,(I would like to own
one except for the expense) but you have to admit that the sustainers
have only one purpose and that is to save a flight that would
otherwise end in landing out.* How can anyone deny that this is a huge
psychological advantage on the average OLC flight where there is
nothing at stake but bragging rights.* Bottom line, motor gliders
should compete against motor gliders on OLC.

I had flown 2000 hours in unpowered sailplanes when I switched to a
motorglider, and I did not feel I had a huge psychological advantage.
And when I fly at the Parowan motorglider event each year, somehow my
"huge psychological advantage" isn't enough to keep pilots like Rami
Yanetz and Thorsten Streple from clobbering me on the OLC! There is some
advantage, but it's not huge, or even big.

So, of all the factors that go into an OLC score, why do you focus only
on the motor? The place has a much larger effect, I think. Who has the
greater advantage: the sustainer pilot launching from Seminole lake, or
the pilot launching from Ridge Soaring on a good ridge day? Or a pilot
in South Africa?

  #8  
Old April 11th 21, 04:17 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,134
Default Purists are from Pluto, Motorgliderists are from Mars - #2

It would make more sense to stratify OLC results on glider price, than motor/no motor. Dinging a guy with a Pik20E compared to a JS1 is plain silly. A separate class or handicap for motorgliders is either a wealth or convenience tax - not a performance tax. And certainly not a testosterone measure. Probably, anyone who has to get on a public forum and boast of testosterone levels, is lacking same.

I continue to find that nearly every glider pilot who is deprecating of motorgliders for how they are operated or the advantage they have, has never operated one for any length of time. The actual advantage has everything to do with convenience and nothing to do with performance.

On Sunday, April 11, 2021 at 7:39:42 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Your OLC (or FAI for that matter) flight ends when you start the engine
so the only advantage is that of not having to wait for a trailer. I
recall a flight in a friend's ASW-24E where I flew far into
deteriorating lift. No worries! I'll just start the engine and fly
back to the lift. It started just fine and then quit within minutes due
to lack of fuel. Had to drive around Pike's Peak to get back to the
airport.

In the case of the Stemme, I don't have a trailer and, though it's never
failed me, I won't trust the engine to save me; it's strictly for launch
or travel to another location.

Dan
5J
On 4/11/21 6:54 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
BobWa43 wrote on 4/11/2021 5:19 AM:
On Sunday, April 11, 2021 at 12:10:18 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Eric Greenwell wrote on 4/10/2021 8:32 PM:
I guess being in the Kuiper belt is not that bad. I guess us purist
have a distinct habit of
staying away from home. I guess next year we will name or gathering
the Kuiper Safari.

Don't read too much into the Pluto part: I just wanted some
alliteration - Pluto/Purist,
Mars/Motorglider. :^)
I suggest "Kuiper Kamp" to keep the alliteration going.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

Do I think that having or not having an engine is a predictor of
piloting skills or testosterone levels? No, absolutely not. Do I
think that having an engine provides a significant advantage in
scoring OLC points? Absolutely, Yes. I have nothing against motor
gliders, particularly the self launching variety,(I would like to own
one except for the expense) but you have to admit that the sustainers
have only one purpose and that is to save a flight that would
otherwise end in landing out. How can anyone deny that this is a huge
psychological advantage on the average OLC flight where there is
nothing at stake but bragging rights. Bottom line, motor gliders
should compete against motor gliders on OLC.

I had flown 2000 hours in unpowered sailplanes when I switched to a
motorglider, and I did not feel I had a huge psychological advantage.
And when I fly at the Parowan motorglider event each year, somehow my
"huge psychological advantage" isn't enough to keep pilots like Rami
Yanetz and Thorsten Streple from clobbering me on the OLC! There is some
advantage, but it's not huge, or even big.

So, of all the factors that go into an OLC score, why do you focus only
on the motor? The place has a much larger effect, I think. Who has the
greater advantage: the sustainer pilot launching from Seminole lake, or
the pilot launching from Ridge Soaring on a good ridge day? Or a pilot
in South Africa?

  #9  
Old April 11th 21, 10:38 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
BobWa43
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 42
Default Purists are from Pluto, Motorgliderists are from Mars - #2

On Sunday, April 11, 2021 at 11:17:08 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
It would make more sense to stratify OLC results on glider price, than motor/no motor. Dinging a guy with a Pik20E compared to a JS1 is plain silly. A separate class or handicap for motorgliders is either a wealth or convenience tax - not a performance tax. And certainly not a testosterone measure.. Probably, anyone who has to get on a public forum and boast of testosterone levels, is lacking same.

I continue to find that nearly every glider pilot who is deprecating of motorgliders for how they are operated or the advantage they have, has never operated one for any length of time. The actual advantage has everything to do with convenience and nothing to do with performance.
On Sunday, April 11, 2021 at 7:39:42 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Your OLC (or FAI for that matter) flight ends when you start the engine
so the only advantage is that of not having to wait for a trailer. I
recall a flight in a friend's ASW-24E where I flew far into
deteriorating lift. No worries! I'll just start the engine and fly
back to the lift. It started just fine and then quit within minutes due
to lack of fuel. Had to drive around Pike's Peak to get back to the
airport.

In the case of the Stemme, I don't have a trailer and, though it's never
failed me, I won't trust the engine to save me; it's strictly for launch
or travel to another location.

Dan
5J
On 4/11/21 6:54 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
BobWa43 wrote on 4/11/2021 5:19 AM:
On Sunday, April 11, 2021 at 12:10:18 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Eric Greenwell wrote on 4/10/2021 8:32 PM:
I guess being in the Kuiper belt is not that bad. I guess us purist
have a distinct habit of
staying away from home. I guess next year we will name or gathering
the Kuiper Safari.

Don't read too much into the Pluto part: I just wanted some
alliteration - Pluto/Purist,
Mars/Motorglider. :^)
I suggest "Kuiper Kamp" to keep the alliteration going.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

Do I think that having or not having an engine is a predictor of
piloting skills or testosterone levels? No, absolutely not. Do I
think that having an engine provides a significant advantage in
scoring OLC points? Absolutely, Yes. I have nothing against motor
gliders, particularly the self launching variety,(I would like to own
one except for the expense) but you have to admit that the sustainers
have only one purpose and that is to save a flight that would
otherwise end in landing out. How can anyone deny that this is a huge
psychological advantage on the average OLC flight where there is
nothing at stake but bragging rights. Bottom line, motor gliders
should compete against motor gliders on OLC.

I had flown 2000 hours in unpowered sailplanes when I switched to a
motorglider, and I did not feel I had a huge psychological advantage.
And when I fly at the Parowan motorglider event each year, somehow my
"huge psychological advantage" isn't enough to keep pilots like Rami
Yanetz and Thorsten Streple from clobbering me on the OLC! There is some
advantage, but it's not huge, or even big.

So, of all the factors that go into an OLC score, why do you focus only
on the motor? The place has a much larger effect, I think. Who has the
greater advantage: the sustainer pilot launching from Seminole lake, or
the pilot launching from Ridge Soaring on a good ridge day? Or a pilot
in South Africa?

At Dan "When you start the engine the flight is over" true, but as the man in the earlier referenced video said most times you don't have to start the engine. You get to take the chance on whether there will be lift under that distant cloud with no real penalty if there isn't. If that is not a great advantage, I don't what is.
  #10  
Old April 11th 21, 11:00 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
BobWa43
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 42
Default Purists are from Pluto, Motorgliderists are from Mars - #2

On Sunday, April 11, 2021 at 5:38:41 PM UTC-4, BobWa43 wrote:
On Sunday, April 11, 2021 at 11:17:08 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
It would make more sense to stratify OLC results on glider price, than motor/no motor. Dinging a guy with a Pik20E compared to a JS1 is plain silly. A separate class or handicap for motorgliders is either a wealth or convenience tax - not a performance tax. And certainly not a testosterone measure. Probably, anyone who has to get on a public forum and boast of testosterone levels, is lacking same.

I continue to find that nearly every glider pilot who is deprecating of motorgliders for how they are operated or the advantage they have, has never operated one for any length of time. The actual advantage has everything to do with convenience and nothing to do with performance.
On Sunday, April 11, 2021 at 7:39:42 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Your OLC (or FAI for that matter) flight ends when you start the engine
so the only advantage is that of not having to wait for a trailer. I
recall a flight in a friend's ASW-24E where I flew far into
deteriorating lift. No worries! I'll just start the engine and fly
back to the lift. It started just fine and then quit within minutes due
to lack of fuel. Had to drive around Pike's Peak to get back to the
airport.

In the case of the Stemme, I don't have a trailer and, though it's never
failed me, I won't trust the engine to save me; it's strictly for launch
or travel to another location.

Dan
5J
On 4/11/21 6:54 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
BobWa43 wrote on 4/11/2021 5:19 AM:
On Sunday, April 11, 2021 at 12:10:18 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Eric Greenwell wrote on 4/10/2021 8:32 PM:
I guess being in the Kuiper belt is not that bad. I guess us purist
have a distinct habit of
staying away from home. I guess next year we will name or gathering
the Kuiper Safari.

Don't read too much into the Pluto part: I just wanted some
alliteration - Pluto/Purist,
Mars/Motorglider. :^)
I suggest "Kuiper Kamp" to keep the alliteration going.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

Do I think that having or not having an engine is a predictor of
piloting skills or testosterone levels? No, absolutely not. Do I
think that having an engine provides a significant advantage in
scoring OLC points? Absolutely, Yes. I have nothing against motor
gliders, particularly the self launching variety,(I would like to own
one except for the expense) but you have to admit that the sustainers
have only one purpose and that is to save a flight that would
otherwise end in landing out. How can anyone deny that this is a huge
psychological advantage on the average OLC flight where there is
nothing at stake but bragging rights. Bottom line, motor gliders
should compete against motor gliders on OLC.

I had flown 2000 hours in unpowered sailplanes when I switched to a
motorglider, and I did not feel I had a huge psychological advantage.
And when I fly at the Parowan motorglider event each year, somehow my
"huge psychological advantage" isn't enough to keep pilots like Rami
Yanetz and Thorsten Streple from clobbering me on the OLC! There is some
advantage, but it's not huge, or even big.

So, of all the factors that go into an OLC score, why do you focus only
on the motor? The place has a much larger effect, I think. Who has the
greater advantage: the sustainer pilot launching from Seminole lake, or
the pilot launching from Ridge Soaring on a good ridge day? Or a pilot
in South Africa?

At Dan "When you start the engine the flight is over" true, but as the man in the earlier referenced video said most times you don't have to start the engine. You get to take the chance on whether there will be lift under that distant cloud with no real penalty if there isn't. If that is not a great advantage, I don't what is. If you would agree to disable the engine after take off then it would be a level playing field. It currently is not. Why do motor glider pilots resist the idea of a separate competition group?

 




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