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What Col Killian really said :)



 
 
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  #12  
Old September 24th 04, 08:37 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
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"Leadfoot" wrote in message
news:wcZ4d.334812$Oi.156509@fed1read04...

Whats' the first thing you learn when you join the military?

One aw **** wipes out a thousand ataboys.


That may be, but all the "aw ****s" in this case were fabrications.


  #13  
Old September 25th 04, 03:28 AM
Brett
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"Leadfoot" wrote:

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
k.net...

"Leadfoot" wrote in message
news:wcZ4d.334812$Oi.156509@fed1read04...

Whats' the first thing you learn when you join the military?

One aw **** wipes out a thousand ataboys.


That may be, but all the "aw ****s" in this case were fabrications.


Not according LtCol Killians secretary


That's all she did say. The rest of "her" story was entirely based upon that
fabrication.




  #15  
Old September 25th 04, 03:30 AM
Leadfoot
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"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
k.net...

"Leadfoot" wrote in message
news:wcZ4d.334812$Oi.156509@fed1read04...

Whats' the first thing you learn when you join the military?

One aw **** wipes out a thousand ataboys.


That may be, but all the "aw ****s" in this case were fabrications.


Not according LtCol Killians secretary




  #16  
Old September 25th 04, 03:33 AM
Leadfoot
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"Brett" wrote in message
t...
"Leadfoot" wrote:
"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:27:19 -0700, "Leadfoot"
wrote:

Apparently according to his secretary there were memos that were

written
and
typed by her about shrubs failing to get a physical its just that

the
ones
that CBS got were forgeries that were probably written by someone who

had
seen the originals.

Sure. That's why they used the forgeries instead of the originals.
It's all clear to me now!

And we are to believe the forgeries, instead of the statements that
Killian actually wrote.


Are you saying that LtCOl Killians secretary is lying?


Well she didn't appear on the original Kerry advertisement on 60 minutes

II
Wednesday. So it appears she got all of her "original" ideas about what
Killian "wrote" in the early 1970's from that. You might argue that she
didn't but then isn't it a surprise that all those expensive reporters at

60
minutes didn't think to interview her on tape so that they could include

her
in the original Kerry advertisement.


Yeeeeaaaah she just played along with CBS, Yeah, that's the the ticket!

with apologies to Jon Lovitz







  #17  
Old September 25th 04, 03:49 AM
Brett
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"Leadfoot" wrote:
"Brett" wrote in message
t...
"Leadfoot" wrote:
"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:27:19 -0700, "Leadfoot"
wrote:

Apparently according to his secretary there were memos that were

written
and
typed by her about shrubs failing to get a physical its just that

the
ones
that CBS got were forgeries that were probably written by someone

who
had
seen the originals.

Sure. That's why they used the forgeries instead of the originals.
It's all clear to me now!

And we are to believe the forgeries, instead of the statements that
Killian actually wrote.

Are you saying that LtCOl Killians secretary is lying?


Well she didn't appear on the original Kerry advertisement on 60 minutes

II
Wednesday. So it appears she got all of her "original" ideas about what
Killian "wrote" in the early 1970's from that. You might argue that she
didn't but then isn't it a surprise that all those expensive reporters

at
60
minutes didn't think to interview her on tape so that they could include

her
in the original Kerry advertisement.


Yeeeeaaaah she just played along with CBS,


Well "her story" didn't exist in 2000 so why would anyone believe otherwise.



  #18  
Old September 25th 04, 04:03 AM
Steven P. McNicoll
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Posts: n/a
Default


"Leadfoot" wrote in message
news:nK45d.334879$Oi.303137@fed1read04...

That may be, but all the "aw ****s" in this case were fabrications.


Not according LtCol Killians secretary


She also said they were fabrications. You need to find better sources of
information.


  #19  
Old September 25th 04, 04:13 AM
BUFDRVR
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Posts: n/a
Default

Leadfoot wrote:

That may be, but all the "aw ****s" in this case were fabrications.


Not according LtCol Killians secretary


Was this before or after her emotional out burst about Bush stealing the 2000
election and lying about Iraq? The reason this lady's statement about the
forged documents was so believable was her rabid anti-Bush sentiment.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"
  #20  
Old September 25th 04, 05:40 AM
Leadfoot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Leadfoot" wrote in message
news:nK45d.334879$Oi.303137@fed1read04...

That may be, but all the "aw ****s" in this case were fabrications.


Not according LtCol Killians secretary


She also said they were fabrications. You need to find better sources of
information.


Read it and weep

Transcript of 60 Minutes, September 15, 2004.

DAN RATHER: Last week on this broadcast, we heard for the first time the
full story from a texas politician who says he helped George Bush avoid
military service in vietnam. Former texas house speaker Ben Barnes said he
helped Bush get a highly coveted place in the National Guard. We also
presented documents for the first time, which indicated that once Bush was
accepted into the guard he failed to live up to the requirements of his
service. We reported that the documents were written by lieutenant Bush's
National Guard squad commander, colonel Jerry Killian, who passed away in
1984.

In the past week, those documents have been subjected to extraordinary
scrutiny and criticism tonight, another voice-- a credible voice-- has
entered the debate. The woman who describes herself as colonel Killian's
right hand during much of the 1970s, Marion Carr Knox, colonel Killian's
secretary, flew to new york this afternoon to tell us she believes the
documents we obtained are not authentic. But there's yet another confusing
twist to this story: She told us she believes what the documents actually
say is exactly as we reported. Marion carr knox is 86 years old and
completely comfortable in the eye of a storm. She spent more than two
decades keeping pilots and officers in line at elseon air field in houston.
Now she wants to set the record straight about the memos cbs obtained.
There's a twist. You've seen the memos that we broadcast, these memos that
we got.

MARION CARR KNOX: I did not type those memos.

RATHER: You didn't type these memos?

KNOX: No. And it's not the form that i would have used. And there are words
in there that belong to the army, not to the air guard. We never used those
terms.

RATHER: So with these memos, you know that you didn't type them.

KNOX: I know that i didn't type them. However, the information in those is
correct.

RATHER: Few, if any, things that I ask you about will be more important than
this point: You say you definitely didn't type these memos.

KNOX: Not these particular ones.

RATHER: Did you type ones like this?

KNOX: Yes.

RATHER: Containing the same or identical information?

KNOX: The same information, yes.

RATHER: Mrs. Knox says the information in the four memos cbs obtained is
very familiar, but she doesn't believe the memos are authentic. She does
remember her boss, colonel Jerry Killian, being upset over mr. Bush's
failure to follow orders to take a physical. Did or did not lieutenant Bush
take a physical as ordered by colonel Killian?

KNOX: That last time no he didn'T.

RATHER: To your norjs was he ordered to do so?

KNOX: Yes.

RATHER: This is important: I think you'll agree, that then-lieutenant Bush
was in the military, lieutenant colonel Killian was his immediate military
commander, correct, his squadron command center

KNOX: Right. Yeah.

RATHER: The country was at war. It's very unusual for a military officer,
particularly a flying officer, not to obey a direct order from his superior,
or if not, tell me.

KNOX: It was a big no-no. To not follow orders. I can't remember anyone
refusing now, for instance, with the physical, every officer knew that at
his birthday he was supposed to have that flying physical. Once in a while
they might be late, but there would be a good excuse for it and let the
commander know and try to set up a date for make-up. If they did not take
that physical, they were off of flying status until they did.

RATHER: Did you ever hear lieutenant colonel Killian talk about this or did
he write memos about this? What was his feeling if lieutenant Bush did not
take the physical as ordered?

KNOX: He was upset about it. That was one of the reasons why he... well, he
wrote a memo directing him to go take the physical.

RATHER: I don't understand it.

KNOX: I'm going to say this: It seems to me that Bush felt that he was above
reproof.

RATHER: Marion carr knox remembers lieutenant Bush well, seeing him often as
he showed up for training in 1971 and '7 2,

KNOX: He was always gentlemanly. He called me by the name of his father's
secretary. He was always apologizing about that. He couldn't remember my
name. He was very gentlemanly. I felt that his parents must have been
wonderful to have produced somebody as nice as that.

RATHER: Among the contentions one of the questions raised, one, did or did
not George W. Bush get into the National Guard on the basis of preferential
treatment.

KNOX: I'm going to say that he did. I feel that he did because there were a
lot of other boys in there the same way.

RATHER: Accurate or inaccurate to say that this unit was filled with people
who had republican and democratic connections who got in on the basis of
preference?

KNOX: At that time, yes.

RATHER: Now, you observed lieutenant Bush yourself.

KNOX: Uh-huh.

RATHER: Tell me about him. What kind of officer was he?

KNOX: Bush seemed to be having a good time. He didn't seem to be having any
problem with the other pilots, let me say that. But his time there, itt
seemed that the other fellas were, I'm going to say this, sort of resentful
for his attitude.

RATHER: What was his attitude?

KNOX: Well, that he really didn't have to go by the rules.

RATHER: He didn't really have to go by the rules?

KNOX: It seemed that way to me.

RATHER: Knox says her boss, colonel Jerry Killian, started what she calls a
cover-your-back file, a personal file where she stored the memos about the
problems with mr. Bush's performance and his failure to take a physical and
the pressure Killian felt from upstairs. She addressed this memo and a
reference to retired general stout pushing for a positive officer training
report on lieutenant Bush. And stout is pushing to sugar coat it. Does that
sound like colonel Killian? Is that the way he felt?

KNOX: That's absolutely the way he felt about that.

RATHER: And she talked about this mental moment. She doesn't believe the
memo is authentic, but she says the facts behind it are very real. He did
write a memo like this?

KNOX: Yes.

RATHER: So he did write a memo like this, not this one is your contention,
but one like it?

KNOX: It's just like a personal journal. You write things.

RATHER: Is that what he was keeping, more or laeses personal journal?

KNOX: It was more or less, that yes.

RATHER: These memos were not memos that you tipd and you don't think they
came directly out of his files?

KNOX: The information, yes. It seems that somebody did see those memos, and
then tried to reproduce and maybe changed them enough so that he wouldn't
get in trouble over it.

RATHER: I understand.

KNOX: Could deny it.

RATHER: I understand.

KNOX: That's all just supposition.

RATHER: I understand.

(voiceover) Mrs. Knox says the fact that then-lieutenant Bush was repeatedly
missing drills was not lost on his fellow pilots.

Was it common knowledge or not that lieutenant Bush had not attend some
drills?

KNOX: Well, they missed him. It was sort of gossip around there, and they'd
snicker and so forth about what he was getting away with.

RATHER: What lieutenant Bush was getting away with?

KNOX: Yeah.

RATHER: They were snickering about that?

KNOX: Well, the other officers, and I guess there was even a resentment.

RATHER (voiceover): She told us again and again she believed

then-lieutenant Bush refused a direct order to take take a physical.

Colonel Killian's son, with whom I have no argument and i respect the
Killian family tremendously for the sacrifice that they made when their
husband and father was serving in the military, colonel Killian's son says
that this this isn't true.

KNOX: He has no way of knowing whether it's true or noT.

RATHER (voiceover): Mrs. Knox says for young George Bush in 1972, working

in a senate campaign became more important than flying for the guard.

Back off for a moment. Take a breath. Think a little and have you tell me
what you believe the story here is.

KNOX: I think it's plain and simple. Bush didn't think that he had to go by
the rules that others did. He had this campaign to take care of, and that's
what he was going to do, and that's what he did do.

RATHER: A few personal thoughts on the story we have reported tonight. We
shall continue to aggressively investigate the story of President Bush's
service in the National Guard, and the story of the documents and memos in
Colonel Killian's file. Are those documents authentic, as experts consulted
by cbs news continue to maintain?

Or were they forgeries or recreations, as marion carr knox and many other
believe? We will keep an open mind, and we will continue to report credible
evidence and responsible points of view as we try to answer the questions
raised about the authenticity of the documents.

Having said that, we do feel that it's important to underscore this point:
Those who have criticized aspects of our story have never criticized the
heart of it, the major thrust of our report: That George Bush received
preferential treatment to get into the National Guard, and, once accepted,
failed to satisfy the requirements of his service.

If we uncover any information to the contrary, rest assured we shall report
that also.








 




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