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PPL and flight simulators



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 11th 03, 01:11 PM
Slav Inger
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Default PPL and flight simulators

Benjamin Gawert wrote:

Are simulator hours (I mean "real" simulators, not just a Peecee running Ms
Flight Simulator) countable as flying hours if the PIC has the PPL and the
ratings/endorsements necessary to fly the type of aircraft the simulator
represents? What requirements are necessary for the simulator to be
recognised as valid? Can a simulator be used in a type rating?


Use of approved simulator devices is allowed for training purposes.
When you're a PP acting as PIC and would like to fly the approved sim
and log the hours, my interpretation of FAR 61.57 is that you can do it
and use it later towards a rating or to maintain VFR and IFR currency.

- Slav Inger
- PP ASEL IA @ YIP
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  #2  
Old July 11th 03, 06:25 PM
Larry Fransson
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In article ,
Bob Esser wrote:

I think you can even get a type rating on some
simulators.


It happens all the time. I got my Learjet type rating in a simulator.

Different simulators can be used for different amounts of a type rating
checkride depending on their level of certification. Some can be used
for 100% of the checkride. Others can only be used for 80%.

--
Larry Fransson
Aviation software for Mac OS X!
http://www.subcritical.com
  #3  
Old July 11th 03, 09:43 PM
BTIZ
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define "real" simulators... there are varying degrees "classes" beyond the
desktop PC, most are usable for IFR training, but as mentioned in a previous
post, you need a CFII with you to log the training, just practice by your
self, although good experience is not creditable towards log book hours or
currency requirements.

BT

"Benjamin Gawert" wrote in message
...
Are simulator hours (I mean "real" simulators, not just a Peecee running

Ms
Flight Simulator) countable as flying hours if the PIC has the PPL and the
ratings/endorsements necessary to fly the type of aircraft the simulator
represents? What requirements are necessary for the simulator to be
recognised as valid? Can a simulator be used in a type rating?

Benjamin



  #4  
Old July 11th 03, 09:51 PM
Benjamin Gawert
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Default

BTIZ wrote:

define "real" simulators...


A fully complete cockpit made of the cockpit parts of the real aircraft,
with front visual system, force feedback, and some simulation of the
g-forces pressing the pilot into the seat. A simulator that shows the
exactly same behavior the real aircraft shows...

there are varying degrees "classes"
beyond the desktop PC, most are usable for IFR training, but as
mentioned in a previous post, you need a CFII with you to log the
training, just practice by your self, although good experience is not
creditable towards log book hours or currency requirements.


Right. I just want to know if I would log the sim hours if it would make any
sense when having a PPL. Even if they at least count when making the CPL
somewhen...

Benjamin

  #5  
Old July 11th 03, 09:53 PM
Benjamin Gawert
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Default

Larry Fransson wrote:

I think you can even get a type rating on some
simulators.


It happens all the time. I got my Learjet type rating in a simulator.


That sound interesting. What requirements does the sim have to be able to to
type ratings on it?

Different simulators can be used for different amounts of a type
rating checkride depending on their level of certification. Some can
be used for 100% of the checkride. Others can only be used for 80%.


Do You know what prerequisites are necessary for a sim being useable for
80%/100% of the checkride?

Benjamin

  #6  
Old July 11th 03, 11:05 PM
JerryK
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Larry knows more about this than I do, but the simulators have different
levels of fidelity. My understanding is these are labeled A-D, which D
being the best. I think to do 100% of the rating it has to be at least
level C, if not D. Check the FAR/AIMs for the details.

I did some time in a MD-88 level D sim and you can feel the expansion strips
as you taxi. Very impressive.

jerry

"Benjamin Gawert" wrote in message
...
Larry Fransson wrote:

Do You know what prerequisites are necessary for a sim being useable for
80%/100% of the checkride?

Benjamin



  #7  
Old July 11th 03, 11:57 PM
Bob Gardner
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I don't know what the prices are now, but full-motion sims such as Larry
describes go for several hundred dollars an hour...I used to get an hour in
a 737 sim for Christmas every year from a buddy who worked at a sim center.

Bob Gardner

"Benjamin Gawert" wrote in message
...
BTIZ wrote:

define "real" simulators...


A fully complete cockpit made of the cockpit parts of the real aircraft,
with front visual system, force feedback, and some simulation of the
g-forces pressing the pilot into the seat. A simulator that shows the
exactly same behavior the real aircraft shows...

there are varying degrees "classes"
beyond the desktop PC, most are usable for IFR training, but as
mentioned in a previous post, you need a CFII with you to log the
training, just practice by your self, although good experience is not
creditable towards log book hours or currency requirements.


Right. I just want to know if I would log the sim hours if it would make

any
sense when having a PPL. Even if they at least count when making the CPL
somewhen...

Benjamin



  #8  
Old July 12th 03, 12:57 AM
Larry Fransson
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Default

In article ,
"JerryK" wrote:

My understanding is these are labeled A-D, which D
being the best. I think to do 100% of the rating it has to be at least
level C, if not D. Check the FAR/AIMs for the details.


I can never find the reference when I need it. I don't remember where
it is. I'm not sure if you need a Level C simulator for a 100%
checkride or if Level B will do. In any case, you have to meet certain
experience requirements to receive an unrestricted type rating from a
100% simulator check. They include things like previous type ratings or
applicable experience in actual aircraft. Lacking those prerequisites,
you may receive a type rating that requires something on the order of 15
to 25 hours of "supervised PIC experience" which means essentially that
you are carrying out the duties of PIC under the supervision of a
qualified PIC. Once you have that logged, you take your log book down
to the FSDO, they look at it, and then give you a new temporary
certificate with an unrestricted type rating.

At FlightSafety in Tucson where I go for annual recurrent training, they
have two Lear 35 simulators - one a Level B and one a Level C. The
Level B simulator used to be Level A. They got it certified to Level B
so that they could use it more. Used to be we couldn't take our Part
135 checkrides in anything but the Level C sim because the level A sim
somehow didn't meet the requirements. Last time I was there, they said
something about having upgraded the A to a B so that they could use it
for checkrides.

I did some time in a MD-88 level D sim and you can feel the expansion strips
as you taxi. Very impressive.


Level D is supposed to be a much better simulation, and it does
something resembling daylight simulation. It's pretty dark daylight
inside, but certainly better than what they call daylight in a Level C
sim, which is much closer to late dusk than anything else.

I got to fly a 767 simulator a few weeks ago. I'll vouch for its
fidelity to the real thing. When my wife (who doesn't fly except with
me) couldn't remember how to stop after landing, we ended up swerving
down the runway, dragging the left wing, and eventually skidding to a
stop sideways in the grass. I have never dragged a wing in a 767
before, but I imagine the sound we heard was pretty close to what it
would sound like if it really did happen. On the bad landings (which
was most of them - my last one was the only really smooth one, and
that's why it was the last one!), things (and unrestrained people) went
flying around the flight deck. It seemed fairly real to me!

--
Larry Fransson
Aviation software for Mac OS X!
http://www.subcritical.com
  #9  
Old July 12th 03, 03:32 AM
Richard Kaplan
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"Benjamin Gawert" wrote in message
...

That sound interesting. What requirements does the sim have to be able to

to
type ratings on it?


Level D simulator which basically becomes so real even the weather depiction
landing in low IFR conditions is realistic --- this is a multi-million $
sim.

Do You know what prerequisites are necessary for a sim being useable for
80%/100% of the checkride?


This is listed in a table in the PTS standards.

--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com



  #10  
Old July 12th 03, 03:44 AM
Richard Kaplan
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Default




"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:[email protected]

define "real" simulators... there are varying degrees "classes" beyond the
desktop PC, most are usable for IFR training, but as mentioned in a

previous
post, you need a CFII with you to log the training, just practice by your
self, although good experience is not creditable towards log book hours or
currency requirements.


The only device which requires a CFII to make it loggable is a "PCATD,"
which is a personal computer aviation training device -- basically a
computer with a yoke and rudder pedals. A PCATD requires a CFII in order
for the time to count toward the instrument rating.

The next step up is a "Flight Training Device" and can be graded from Level
1 through Level 6 depending on the degree of realism of the cockpit and
visual display and controls. Even an older Level 1 Flight Training Device
which has only an instrument panel and no visual display can be used toward
IFR currency. It is acceptable for a CFII to administer an IPC in a
flight training device; however, it is also acceptable for a pilot to use
solo time in the flight training device toward instrument currency. A
flight training device can range anywhere from instruments only with no
motion to full-motion with 180-degree visual projection, a realistic
cockpit, advanced avionics, and sophisticated failure scenarios.

The next step up would be to a Level A through D "Simulator".. these are
highly realistic motion-based simulators which almost always cost in the
millions or at least high 6 figures.. it would be extremely unusual to use a
Level A through D "Simulator" for piston general aviation training.

My "simulator" which will be installed next week, for example, is actually a
full-motion Level 3 Flight Training Device. It will indeed be creditable as
logged time and for currency purposes. However, the time will count as
"Flight Training Device" time and "Simulated Instrument Time" and not as
airplane time.


--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com


 




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