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Flying Club Costs



 
 
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  #1  
Old June 27th 04, 12:55 AM
The Weiss Family
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Default Flying Club Costs

All,

We had an open house at our local airport here in Minden, NV (MEV) today.
It turns out there is a flying club based here that I didn't even know
about!

They have a late 60's 182 with a Pertesen conversion (260 HP, I think) and a
70's Grumman Tiger.
I think those are two great planes, but I was wondering a bit about the
costs.

They cost is $4000 to join (returned when you leave).
Then $179 monthly dues.
And then $80/hr wet rate for either plane.

At first I thought, well I pay $89/hr for a 172 rental right now.
$80/hr is a deal.
Then I added on the $179/mo.
If I only fly 50 hrs per year, my effective hourly rate is about $122.
If I fly 100 hrs per year my effective hourly rate is about $101.
That's not bad because I'd be able to take the plane on trips, etc.

What really got me thinking is, "Where does all the money go?"

There are 15 members of this club.
If each is paying $179/mo and flying 50 hrs/yr, then the club is bringing in
about $92K/yr.
So just for round numbers, let's assume each plane brings in about $50K/yr.

I then tried to estimate annual costs.
I tried to figure accurately or high on costs to give them the benefit of
the doubt.

Anually:
Insurance: $10K per plane
Maintenance: $10K per plane
Fuel/Oil: $13K per plane (400hrs x 2.75/gal x 12gal/hr)
Hangar: $3K per plane
Loan?: $10K per plane (not sure if there is a loan)
TOTAL: $46K

So, I guess I need more information, but it looks like I'm answering my own
question.
However, if there is $$$ left over, where does it usually go?
Is a flying club a "for profit" business?

Thanks,

Adam


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  #2  
Old June 27th 04, 01:18 AM
Paul Tomblin
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In a previous article, "The Weiss Family" said:
They cost is $4000 to join (returned when you leave).
Then $179 monthly dues.
And then $80/hr wet rate for either plane.


That seems pretty high to me. Our club
(http://www.rochesterflyingclub.com/) costs $795 to join (not returned
when you leave), $80 monthly dues (plus $24 a year for "self insurance",
so call it $82 a month), and aircraft cost between $60/hr wet for the
Warrior to $116/hr wet for the Lance (assuming we figure out how to insure
it next year).

There are 15 members of this club.


Well, ok we've got 50 members for five aircraft, so you've got a slightly
better plane/person ratio.

However, if there is $$$ left over, where does it usually go?


Engine reserves, prop reserves, upgrade fund. Have to budget for those
Garmin 530s somehow, right?

Is a flying club a "for profit" business?


Not usually.


--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
If Alan Turing was alive today, the homosexuality
would be OK but he'd be in trouble for codebreaking.
-- Martin Bacon
  #3  
Old June 27th 04, 01:29 AM
Matt Whiting
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Default

The Weiss Family wrote:
All,

We had an open house at our local airport here in Minden, NV (MEV) today.
It turns out there is a flying club based here that I didn't even know
about!

They have a late 60's 182 with a Pertesen conversion (260 HP, I think) and a
70's Grumman Tiger.
I think those are two great planes, but I was wondering a bit about the
costs.

They cost is $4000 to join (returned when you leave).
Then $179 monthly dues.
And then $80/hr wet rate for either plane.


That sounds pretty expensive on the surface, but then I'm not familiar
with prices in your part of the country. I belong to a flying club in
Elmira, NY and our costs for a 1967 PA-28R (Arrow) a

$200 to join (I don't think this is refundable.
$100 deposit (I think this is refundable)
$1 share of ownership (This is refundable also)

$90/month dues

$56/hour wet rate (based on engine tach time, not Hobbs meter)

Matt

  #4  
Old June 27th 04, 01:31 AM
Vaughn
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Default


"The Weiss Family" wrote in message
...

At first I thought, well I pay $89/hr for a 172 rental right now.
$80/hr is a deal.


If you are buying renter's insurance (and you probably should be) your
effective hourly rate is considerably higher than $80/hr. I assume (perhaps
wrongly) that you are covered for hull damage in the flying club.

However, if there is $$$ left over, where does it usually go?
Is a flying club a "for profit" business?


That depends, I have seen "flying clubs" that were, in fact, actually
businesses. If it is a true flying club, the handling of excess revenues would
be addressed in the club documents. They could be retained as a reserve for
unexpected expenses and/or they could somehow be returned to the members.

Vaughn


  #5  
Old June 27th 04, 02:11 AM
Newps
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Default

There is an airport near here with a 182 club. It costs about $5K to join,
$40 per month and $70 per hour wet. There are 12 members.


"The Weiss Family" wrote in message
...
All,

We had an open house at our local airport here in Minden, NV (MEV) today.
It turns out there is a flying club based here that I didn't even know
about!

They have a late 60's 182 with a Pertesen conversion (260 HP, I think) and

a
70's Grumman Tiger.
I think those are two great planes, but I was wondering a bit about the
costs.

They cost is $4000 to join (returned when you leave).
Then $179 monthly dues.
And then $80/hr wet rate for either plane.

At first I thought, well I pay $89/hr for a 172 rental right now.
$80/hr is a deal.
Then I added on the $179/mo.
If I only fly 50 hrs per year, my effective hourly rate is about $122.
If I fly 100 hrs per year my effective hourly rate is about $101.
That's not bad because I'd be able to take the plane on trips, etc.

What really got me thinking is, "Where does all the money go?"

There are 15 members of this club.
If each is paying $179/mo and flying 50 hrs/yr, then the club is bringing

in
about $92K/yr.
So just for round numbers, let's assume each plane brings in about

$50K/yr.

I then tried to estimate annual costs.
I tried to figure accurately or high on costs to give them the benefit of
the doubt.

Anually:
Insurance: $10K per plane
Maintenance: $10K per plane
Fuel/Oil: $13K per plane (400hrs x 2.75/gal x 12gal/hr)
Hangar: $3K per plane
Loan?: $10K per plane (not sure if there is a loan)
TOTAL: $46K

So, I guess I need more information, but it looks like I'm answering my

own
question.
However, if there is $$$ left over, where does it usually go?
Is a flying club a "for profit" business?

Thanks,

Adam




  #6  
Old June 27th 04, 07:00 AM
Elwood Dowd
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Default

Jeez, that sounds more like a partnership than a club!


There is an airport near here with a 182 club. It costs about $5K to join,
$40 per month and $70 per hour wet. There are 12 members.

  #7  
Old June 27th 04, 03:31 PM
PInc972390
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Default

It turns out there is a flying club based here that I didn't even know
about!


My experience is

Best
$ 12000.00 182 in 1985, whole owner, sold in 1987 for $ 12000.00 flew 800 hours
with no major repairs.

Close Second

$ 20000.00 Aero Commander 100. 1999 till present. Have flown about 1000 hours
with radio up grades mostly.

Medium

$ 15000.00 Mooney in 1982, one other partner. Worked OK but partners Wife kept
chaos going on with Bank and CPA. Sold in 1983 for same money. 100 hrs annual
only.

Worst

$5000.00 in a flying club in 1987 for a 3 year old 172. Beautiful airplane.

Flew about 100 hours at prices just below rental rates.

Two Doctors, Hospital Administrator, Head Nurse ran it out of gas stalled and
flipped it on it's back killing all four. TERRIBLE, especially when finished
with the lawsuits, just because you knew them.

Glad to forfeit my $ 5000.00 Initial, The maintence retainer and the Lawyer
fees.

If you get into a club be sure it is chartered and has the language to protect
you.




  #8  
Old June 27th 04, 04:35 PM
The Weiss Family
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Default

Thanks for the info.
If anyone else has any more numbers, that would be interesting as well.

My next move is to ask the club for their financials and charter (if they
have one).

Thanks again,

Adam


  #9  
Old June 27th 04, 05:07 PM
Andrew Gideon
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Default

Elwood Dowd wrote:

Jeez, that sounds more like a partnership than a club!


In fact, the club to which I belong - http://flyingclub.org/ - does seem to
be very much like a highly organized partnership. This appears to me to be
a Good Thing.

One of the side benefits is that one has an opportunity to learn about
owning, for example. One also has a say in club operations. It's added an
entirely new dimension to aviation, which is all on top of low rates for
good aircraft and no daily minimum nonsense.

There's also the social aspect to consider.

With respect to the OP's question about financials: the club can probably
provide a spreadsheet with all the details. Be sure that all the fixed
costs are covered by the dues, and variable costs are covered by the hourly
rates. Also, confirm that there's a reserve growing for the large ticket
maintenance items. Finally, look at the insurance policy.

These reduce the chance of surprises.

- Andrew

  #10  
Old June 27th 04, 05:30 PM
G.R. Patterson III
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Default



The Weiss Family wrote:

I then tried to estimate annual costs.


You've left out the "banks" for replacement or repair of avionics and overhaul of
engines and props. The overhaul bank on an O-320 will be about $9/flight hour. It'll
be more for that 182.

George Patterson
None of us is as dumb as all of us.
 




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