leading edge flaps

Lots of autos have spoilers, as they push down on the rear for more rear
wheel loading. some formula one style racers have computer controlled
spoilers they call "spoiler flaps", so as to differentiate from a fixed
spoiler.

Formula One type open wheel cars cars don't have active aerodynamic surfaces
anywhere, flaps, spoilers, whatever. They are fixed. The fixed surfaces are
called wings and barge boards. They can be adjusted by the pit crew with tools
for track conditons. The only thing computer controlled by the computer aside
from the engine under present FIA rules is the traction system.

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 09:50:00 -0800, "Tarver Engineering"
wrote:


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
.. .
On 11 Jan 2004 01:19:53 GMT, (B2431) wrote:

From: Ed Rasimus

Not sure what "roll steering" is.

The only place I have ever seen the terms "roll steering" and "pitch
steering"
was in reference to the bars on an ADI.

Not even there, Dan. The ADI terminology was "bank steering" and
"pitch steering".

That would be because most INSs produse "roll command" and you would not
have "roll steering" in an F-4.


Dan's post refers to the nomenclature for the Attitude Director
Indicator. The two bars, one horizontal and one vertical, provide cues
for flying instruments, similar to the "bug" in more current displays.
They can offer commands related to navigation guidance such as turns
to headings or cues for flying ILS approaches or even be linked to
weapons release computers for fly up for lofted weapons deliveries.

What roll steering refers to is a navigational error signal. From which the
flight director roll computer would use roll steering and other parameters
to produce roll command, usually displayed as a CMD bug on a flight director
attitude display.

The vertical bar on the display was called the bank steering bar
because it displaced left or right of center and when the proper
amount of bank was initiated, it returned to center. When your course
change was complete it displaced the opposite direction to return you
to wings level flight.

Or a bug can be used to play pilot chase the needles, or just have George do
it.

The horizontal bar was termed the pitch steering bar and it commanded
pitch inputs to achieve the proper climb or dive angles.

Same idea, except roll steering is only part of the equation that produces
command.

The nomenclature has nothing to do with the Inertial Navigation
system. The ADI is not specific to the F-4, but is the generic
attitude indicator display and was the same in the F-105, F-4, and
T-38, as well as a a number of other US aircraft which I don't have
several thousand hours in.

Ed, an INS usually produces roll command directly and does not use the
flight director calculation for roll command. The nomenclature is
different.

Let me give you an example of some 747 navigation changes we have
facilitated:

A certain head of state aircraft wants to have a glass cockpit and selects a
company with an FMS that integrates several flight management systems into
their computer. (PMS, Flight Director, DADC, Primary Display) For this
system integration we provided a converter from digital to Analog Roll
Command, so that the FMS could drive the aircrft's roll command input.

Another head of state has a 747 where there was a desire to integrate a
Trimble 2101 I/O for approach. In this case, we provided a signal such that
the HSI could output "roll steering" from signals derived from the GPS and
the DG.

So, it is a matter of where the signal is in the system as to what it is
named and you would not normally use roll steering with an INS, but I have
heard of some INSs that are the other way.

"Smartace11" wrote in message
...
Lots of autos have spoilers, as they push down on the rear for more rear
wheel loading. some formula one style racers have computer controlled
spoilers they call "spoiler flaps", so as to differentiate from a fixed
spoiler.

Formula One type open wheel cars cars don't have active aerodynamic
surfaces
anywhere, flaps, spoilers, whatever. They are fixed.

You mean formula one cars use fixed spoilers.

It has been well known for some time that mechanizing the fixed spoiler into
a spoiler flap produces several advantages.

snip of rattling and clanking

In article ,
"Tarver Engineering" wrote:

Lots of autos have spoilers, as they push down on the rear for more rear
wheel loading.

Actually, most modern street cars that have spoilers use them to cause a
trailing vortex that decreases flow separation at the rear of the car
and reduces overall drag. There's also a reduction in aerodynamic lift,
but surprisingly little direct downforce. You have to have a *large*
tail spoiler to get a lot of downforce, and that usually makes more drag
than is worth it.

This is very different from the wings you see on race cars, which also
handle flow control but generate a *lot* more downforce.

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

"Chad Irby" wrote in message
. ..
In article ,
"Tarver Engineering" wrote:

Lots of autos have spoilers, as they push down on the rear for more rear
wheel loading.

Actually, most modern street cars that have spoilers use them to cause a
trailing vortex that decreases flow separation at the rear of the car
and reduces overall drag.

Excellent Chad.

There's also a reduction in aerodynamic lift,
but surprisingly little direct downforce. You have to have a *large*
tail spoiler to get a lot of downforce, and that usually makes more drag
than is worth it.

That would have to do with how fast a race car goes, Chad. Although, I have
seen some expensive ricers with very large spoilers on their cars, out
across the desert.

This is very different from the wings you see on race cars, which also
handle flow control but generate a *lot* more downforce.

Very nice, Chad, but my reference was to computer controlled spoilers on
race cars, something you need to do a little more research on, but thanks
for the data dump.

"Dudley Henriques" wrote...

The Blues bolted 'um shut. Can you imagine what would happen in a tight
diamond with an A4 if a wing position got an asymmetrical slat extension
with roll induced....say in a barrel roll? Not a pretty thought!! :-))

In over 1700 A-4 hours, I never had an asymmetric slat extension that I could
not quickly and easily control. After about 1000 hours, few of them were even
unpredictable... Careful preflight of the slats would give a VERY good idea of
which one would come out first, and any preflight "stickiness" was grounds for
rejecting the airplane or having the Airframers work on it before flight. I
believe too many TA-4s were lost in the Training Command due to students'
unfamiliarity with the airplane and instructors' failure to teach and emphasize
both preflight and recovery techniques.

That said, I fully understand why the Blues bolted them in -- their 36"
wingtip-to-fuselage clearance in some of their formation maneuvers gave quite a
bit less room for error than our nominal 3-5' wingtip-to-wingtip clearance in
the fleet.

"Tarver Engineering" wrote...

Exactly where would I find a
reference to "a spoiler flap in a speedbrake configuration," and in
what context?

Look it up in CFR14, it is a required data element for digital flight
data recorders.

Nope. Not a single one.

Try again, Johnny.

If you can't even look up the DFDR anex in a searchable version of CFR-14,
why are you bothering to post? Besides that, I already made my point.

Well, in addition to Part 121 I can look up Annexes D and E to 14CFR Part 125,
both of which address DFDR specifications, as well as 125.226, which addresses
DFDRs. Again, there are absolutely NO references such as you claim.

I suppose you have, indeed, made your "point" -- that you can spew BS in this
forum and get people to react to it.

I have also made my point -- that your claim is, as usual, totally incredible
and unsubstantiated. You make for good entertainment at times, but with such a
low signal-to-noise ratio, are a lousy source of credible or usable information.

"Tarver Engineering" wrote...

14CFR Part 121 (as cited above) has references to "Ground spoiler" and
"spoilers" and "spoiler", but NONE to "fixed spoiler" or "spoiler flap".

The ONLY such "full nomenclature" yet discovered is in the Tarverisms.

We're still waiting for a credible citation...

Lots of autos have spoilers, as they push down on the rear for more rear
wheel loading. some formula one style racers have computer controlled
spoilers they call "spoiler flaps", so as to differentiate from a fixed
spoiler.

We still have no credible citation...

Even if your latest claim had anything to do with airplanes, DFDRs, and 14CFR --
as you previously claimed -- they still do not make for a credible citation. It
took another poster only 18 minutes to debunk the latest "spoiler flaps" claim,
and he is at least as credible as you...

"John R Weiss" wrote in message
news8iMb.24836$Rc4.94947@attbi_s54...
"Tarver Engineering" wrote...

Exactly where would I find a
reference to "a spoiler flap in a speedbrake configuration," and in
what context?

Look it up in CFR14, it is a required data element for digital flight
data recorders.

Nope. Not a single one.

Try again, Johnny.

If you can't even look up the DFDR anex in a searchable version of
CFR-14,
why are you bothering to post? Besides that, I already made my point.

Well, in addition to Part 121 I can look up Annexes D and E to 14CFR Part
125,
both of which address DFDR specifications, as well as 125.226, which
addresses
DFDRs. Again, there are absolutely NO references such as you claim.

Speedbrake is right there, Johnny.

"John R Weiss" wrote in message
news:aiiMb.24859$Rc4.95395@attbi_s54...
"Tarver Engineering" wrote...

14CFR Part 121 (as cited above) has references to "Ground spoiler" and
"spoilers" and "spoiler", but NONE to "fixed spoiler" or "spoiler
flap".

The ONLY such "full nomenclature" yet discovered is in the Tarverisms.

We're still waiting for a credible citation...

Lots of autos have spoilers, as they push down on the rear for more rear
wheel loading. some formula one style racers have computer controlled
spoilers they call "spoiler flaps", so as to differentiate from a fixed
spoiler.

We still have no credible citation...

Sure you do, that is part of the irony.

You might want to adapt a more Dudley like tack to these technical
discussions and only post when you have something to say. I don't see what
you add to the Ed/Carrier/Walt pilot expert posts.

Now, back to military aviation ...