Squall torpedo

You MAY be correct about the old torpedo. There was a British TV
programme that pointed with good evidence to this fact.

However - I think a point is being missed here ?

Super-Cavitation Technology ?

What can be applied to a torpedo can equally applied to a submarine.

The Russians have retired their 'Golden Bullet' 45 knot Alpha Class Submarines.

A 'Super-Cavitating' submarine that uses this ability as a 'sprint' ?

Interesting no ?

Merlin



"D" wrote in message nk.net...
----------
In article ,
(Spitfiremk9) wrote:

Whoops there goes another Super Carrier (steering gear & screws) !

http://www.diodon349.com/Kursk-Memor...the_squall.htm

Both you and the website author are being goofy.

The site clearly states that this is an _anti-submarine_ torpedo.

In addition, the website is wrong about this being the cause for the sinking
of the Kursk. The Russians have concluded that it was actually an older,
conventional torpedo that probably caused the loss.




D

(Spitfiremk9) wrote:

You MAY be correct about the old torpedo. There was a British TV
programme that pointed with good evidence to this fact.

However - I think a point is being missed here ?

Super-Cavitation Technology ?

What can be applied to a torpedo can equally applied to a submarine.
[...]
A 'Super-Cavitating' submarine that uses this ability as a 'sprint' ?

Which would completely defeat the any modern submarine's greatest advantage
- stealth. You might as well paint a huge, luminescent, noisy bulls' eye
on it.

| George Ruch
| "Is there life in Clovis after Clovis Man?"

"Spitfiremk9" wrote in message
. ..
You MAY be correct about the old torpedo. There was a British TV
programme that pointed with good evidence to this fact.

However - I think a point is being missed here ?

Super-Cavitation Technology ?

What can be applied to a torpedo can equally applied to a submarine.


Not easily, rocket propelled submarines would seem
a non trivial development.

The Russians have retired their 'Golden Bullet' 45 knot Alpha Class
Submarines.


Given their design , liquid metal cooled rectors etc that
was very wide of them

A 'Super-Cavitating' submarine that uses this ability as a 'sprint' ?


And makes so much noise that every SOSUS station on the
planet hears them

Interesting no ?


No

Keith

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...
And makes so much noise that every SOSUS station on the
planet hears them

Is submarine's stealth cruising the only situation the submarine can be
caught in? Let's say it's already located and has a torpedo coming at it. Or
some situation develops where it has to travel very fast to some place, e.g.
some rescue operation or something, it doesn't really matter. In those
situations I wouldn't give a **** about some SOSUS tracking my ass but would
be very thankful to the engineers that provided me with this neat feature.

"agh" wrote in message ...
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...
And makes so much noise that every SOSUS station on the
planet hears them

Is submarine's stealth cruising the only situation the submarine can be
caught in? Let's say it's already located and has a torpedo coming at it.
Or
some situation develops where it has to travel very fast to some place,
e.g.
some rescue operation or something, it doesn't really matter. In those
situations I wouldn't give a **** about some SOSUS tracking my ass but
would
be very thankful to the engineers that provided me with this neat feature.



The question is how much are you prepared to give up
to get it ?

Supercavitation requires a large gas generating capacity
and humongous amount of thrust. To achieve this the
Shkval has a honking great solid fuel rocket that takes
up most of its interior space and has a range of less than
6 miles.

Push your submarine 5 miles downrange this way and you'll
delay the helicopter by perhaps 3 minutes while providing him
with a confirmation of your presence and a precise location

Personally I'd prefer a decent decoy.

Keith

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...
Supercavitation requires a large gas generating capacity
and humongous amount of thrust. To achieve this the
Shkval has a honking great solid fuel rocket that takes
up most of its interior space and has a range of less than
6 miles.

Yes, I see your point. You're absolutely right. It is quite impractical (or,
better, impossible) with today's technology, but it might prove to be an
interesting concept in future.

On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 14:16:52 +0100, "agh" wrote:

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...
Supercavitation requires a large gas generating capacity
and humongous amount of thrust. To achieve this the
Shkval has a honking great solid fuel rocket that takes
up most of its interior space and has a range of less than
6 miles.

Yes, I see your point. You're absolutely right. It is quite impractical (or,
better, impossible) with today's technology, but it might prove to be an
interesting concept in future.

I dunno. ASW is a cat and mouse game. If the mouse wears a bell it
makes the cat's job easier. This has been true since the beginning
and I doubt it will ever change.

Another thing to consider is that which can be done on a small scale
(a torpedo weighing a ton) may not be possible on a large scale (a
submarine weighing thousands of tons). I suspect the ride through
this "bubble" is probably not very smooth and that will cause it's own
set of problems with submarine systems.

And if the amount of propellant to do this for a torpedo poses safety
risks for the sub, consider the tankage that would be required to
carry sufficient propellant for the whole sub. If solid propellant
were used it would be a "one time use" system, and that means you are
sacrificing other things (money, space, sensor capacity, etc.) to get
away once. With these other systems you might evade detection all
together or escape many times.

At the end of the day the weapon will probably give U.S. forces some
pause, but whether or not is it practical remains to be seen.

Bill Kambic

"Keith Willshaw" wrote:


"Eunometic" wrote in message
. com...
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
news:colm61$gr5$1

The site refered to at the begining of the thread refers to a switch
from solid propellant to liquid propulsion. This would appear to give
several advantages.

1 Higher specific impulse therfore speed and range.

And considerable increase in risk, liquid propellants in
the torpedo room - shudders !

2 The rocket-torpedo can be ejected from its own tube: manouever and
aligne itself towards the target at low speed by varying its thrust
and then accelerate at high speed rather than relying on a propellor
based system to achieve initial alignment.

Throttlable rocket engines are considerably more complex
and the risk to the launcher just went up again.

3 After having intercepted its target at high speed it can slow down
for a 'look' using its terminal homing system and then re-alinge and
re-accelerate.


Not without turning off the gas generator for the supercavitation

I also can see why the system can't use a trailing wire command
guidence systemn as conventional torpedos and missiles use. It may
have uses as a torpedo intercept system.


That wire would trail behind the torpedo where the rocket exhaust is

Oops

Keith

Do torps really use trailing wire guidance now?...they sure
didn't when I was involved in ASW between 1951 and 77. Matter of
fact I never heard of that before, (although some 'missiles' do).
--

-Gord.
(use gordon in email)

In message , Eunometic
writes
I doubt the Russians would produce a completely impracticable weapon.

However, not all their concepts have proved effective when tested, and
many have performed poorly when exported in a reduced-specification
version

Almost certainly a modest degree of directional control (perhaps turn
rates of 1 degree per second) is possible

How? It's in a supercavitating bubble. Depth keeping and an
approximately straight line is the best it will manage without dumping
the bubble.

if only to keep the missile
on course, homing guidence at full speed might be difficult due to
the gas cavity

Try "impossible". That supercavitation effect blinds any possible
sensor, plus the location for the sensor array is taken up by the gas
bleed.

Similar set of problems to polyox injection, except supercavitation at
least gives a lot more speed.

and rocket motor interfering with both passive and
active sonar but that wouldn't prevent the missile being equiped with
an inertial guidence system able to take the missile to within close
range of the target where it either slows down for a 'look' using
conventional passive or active sonar or it detonates a large (possibly
nuclear) warhead.

Shkval was designed as a reactive weapon to throw a packet of instant
sunshine in the general direction of an enemy who had revealed himself
by firing. It's now being marketed as a conventional weapon intended
to... well.. go really fast.

Even a cheap inertial guidence system would have
drift rates of at most 20 meters per minute; given its speed of well
over 300km/h or 5km/minute so an attack on targets 25 km away would
place the missile within 100 meters of the 'enemy carrier' or 'sub'.

Plus five minutes of movement by the carrier or submarine, who has heard
this weapon coming. (Shkval's range is typically cited as only around
6,000 yards, for reference)

Even attacks using WW2 shoot and forget collision course type aiming
with spreads of torpedos would have a high degree of success given the
enormous speed of the missile preventing evasive manouvers.

In all this, you assume perfect targeting by the submarine, of course.
How precisely can you judge bearing, range, course and speed of a
submarine from 25 kilometres out?

--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

"Gord Beaman" wrote in message
...
"Keith Willshaw" wrote:


Do torps really use trailing wire guidance now?...

Yep

they sure
didn't when I was involved in ASW between 1951 and 77. Matter of
fact I never heard of that before, (although some 'missiles' do).
--

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/weaps/mk-48.htm
http://americanhistory.si.edu/subs/w...ent/torpedoes/
http://www.sfu.ca/casr/101-navtorp1.htm
http://www.naval-technology.com/proj...scorpene3.html

and to keep Paul Adam happy

Spearfish Spearfish Rah Rah Rah

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/vanguard/

Keith