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#12
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But, that is unresponsive to the question. While running USAF
exercises from USAFE Hq in the early '80s I set up a lot of USN/USAF/NATO dissimilar air-to-air exercises. Typically the debrief between F-14A and F-15A showed the Eagles prevailing WVR (in those days it was guns/Lima/AIM-7F) and the Turkeys claiming it made no difference because the Eagle was morted pre-merge with the -54. I'd forgotten about that series of engagements. You've told me about them before. Thanks for the good comments guys. I'd be happy to hear more, but perhaps more subjective and interesting question is what's the most memorable a-a waxing you've ever given (or gotten)? There's got to be some great stories about bagging an ace, or like you said Ed, taking out an Eagle in a Talon. Or a Scooter bagging a Hornet. Or even an Intruder or 'Vaark getting the drop on someone! So let me grab you a pint, pull up a chair, and let the bragging begin! "There I was..." Tony p.s.- I assume that the best is probably coming home alive after doing your job, but I wanted to open the floor to some shameless and entertaining bragging |
#13
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"Tony Volk" wrote in message ... SNIP---------- I'd forgotten about that series of engagements. You've told me about them before. Thanks for the good comments guys. I'd be happy to hear more, but perhaps more subjective and interesting question is what's the most memorable a-a waxing you've ever given (or gotten)? There's got to be some great stories about bagging an ace, or like you said Ed, taking out an Eagle in a Talon. Or a Scooter bagging a Hornet. Or even an Intruder or 'Vaark getting the drop on someone! So let me grab you a pint, pull up a chair, and let the bragging begin! "There I was..." Tony SNIP----------- I wish I could remember the name of the guy driving the RA-5C (-10) that shamelessly whipped a couple of F-4's one day, like he owned them. I can't even remember all the details but it was something along the line of the Vigi was at a low weight, optimum altitude, 40,000 feet or so, and he got the drop on them. Evidently the two F-4's couldn't believe it was happening to them and instead of splitting and catching the Vigi between them, they both tried to turn and burn with him. He wore them out and wisely called it off, about the time, the two F-4 drivers came to their senses and started working to get the advantage. One of my most memorable days, was on a routine flight from Key West, was discovering a pair of Cuban MiG-21 out in front of us. Of course we weren't allowed to shoot them down. But being out in the middle of nowhere, we played for a little while and discovered that even though one of the pilots was damn good, they weren't better than our F-8's. This was before Vietnam and we still had a lot to learn about the 21. My CO told us on the quiet, that Intell thought one of the pilots was a Soviet Major, and the other was a Cuban Major and that both were instructors. That was supposed to be the only reason they were willing to play tag. Then there are the days I should forget, like the time I put out all the lights in Southern California, or getting caught with the Admirals daughter in the phone booth at the Trader Vics. NAW, I wouldn't trade those memories for a new puppy for Christmas. Red |
#14
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On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:00:04 -0500, "Tony Volk"
wrote: I'd forgotten about that series of engagements. You've told me about them before. Thanks for the good comments guys. I'd be happy to hear more, but perhaps more subjective and interesting question is what's the most memorable a-a waxing you've ever given (or gotten)? There's got to be some great stories about bagging an ace, or like you said Ed, taking out an Eagle in a Talon. Or a Scooter bagging a Hornet. Or even an Intruder or 'Vaark getting the drop on someone! So let me grab you a pint, pull up a chair, and let the bragging begin! "There I was..." Tony p.s.- I assume that the best is probably coming home alive after doing your job, but I wanted to open the floor to some shameless and entertaining bragging Well, pshaw. But, since you asked. Maybe the most fun I ever had in a Talon vs Eagle engagement was a 2-v-2 out of Holloman. My wingman was Capt. Mike Scott (son of Lt Gen Winfield Scott who was Supt of AFA at that time and previously an F-105 driver.) Mike had been an F-4 type before coming to AT-38s and was definitely not a "my dad is so-and-so" kind of guy. He was very good at the job. The Eagles were led by the Western US F-15 demo pilot--the hand-picked whiz-kid to go to airshows and fly the low level demos of the Eagle everywhere W. of the Mississippi. At the time, the 49th wing at Holloman had a wing commander who was much more administrator than fighter pilot. His greatest concern was that an accident, particularly with his relatively low-experience wing full of young drivers, would ruin his opportunity to make general. He mandated that all dissimilar engagements flown by his guys would be with "continuous mutual support--radar, radio, visual and formation!" This meant that his guys would be effectively tied to the 1950/60's era fighting wing tactics that he himself had been trained in. On the other side of the airdrome, the AT-38 instructor cadre had much higher average fighter time and no such restrictions. ROE were visual engagments, 5 thousand foot altitude block separation until the merge, and rear-aspect weapons. With dual UHF capability, the Eagles had the advantage of radar, GCI support and monitoring of the Talon's frequency. The AT-38s had small size. Setup was 20 mile separation and head-on into the merge. Cleared to leave the block on visual. I chose to take the block above the Eagles and rather than a traditional spread, I told Mike to stack as close to directly above me as possible (4000 feet higher). "Fight's on." As I expected, the Eagles and GCI picked us up and provided vectors, but the couldn't discriminate the two aircraft and so couldn't allocate weapons on the pair. We could see the huge airplanes long before they saw us and consequently called visual on the pair who immediately entered a defensive turn, dragging the Eagle wingman into low-aspect trail. I engaged the trailer for high-angle guns, Mike offset laterally and maintained his altitude advantage. With a top planform on the turning wingman, I filmed the gun shot then zoomed off opposite the defensive turn. Mike dropped to press and stop the reversal, I continued counter-fight and high-angled the leader on the opposite side of the circle. Mike got his shot on the wingman and I called the egress. We split, got 10K feet of separation and knocked it off. Second, third, fourth engagements repeated. Finally during the fourth engagement I lamented on the radio that I was out of film on my second magazine and wished I'd brought more. The poor Eagle driver accused us on debrief of "lacking flight discipline" because we were split-plane throughout and eating their lunch unfairly. I simply pointed out that we were always in "detached mutual support" and he might want to check out the latest tactics manuals. But, in fairness, had the Eagles been able under the ROE use their Limas, face-shot WVR with AIM-7Fs and been allowed the same freedom of maneuver, we would have been very small threat. Still in all, a great fun day. Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" www.thunderchief.org |
#15
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"Red Rider" wrote in message m... in a Talon. Or a Scooter bagging a Hornet. Or even an Intruder or 'Vaark getting the drop on someone! So let me grab you a pint, pull up a chair, and let the bragging begin! "There I was..." I need to get my dad on here. He's got a great story about his Prowler getting jumped by Tomcat at Red Flag. |
#16
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"Tony Volk" wrote in message ... But, that is unresponsive to the question. While running USAF exercises from USAFE Hq in the early '80s I set up a lot of USN/USAF/NATO dissimilar air-to-air exercises. Typically the debrief between F-14A and F-15A showed the Eagles prevailing WVR (in those days it was guns/Lima/AIM-7F) and the Turkeys claiming it made no difference because the Eagle was morted pre-merge with the -54. I'd forgotten about that series of engagements. You've told me about them before. Thanks for the good comments guys. I'd be happy to hear more, but perhaps more subjective and interesting question is what's the most memorable a-a waxing you've ever given (or gotten)? There's got to be some great stories about bagging an ace, or like you said Ed, taking out an Eagle in a Talon. Or a Scooter bagging a Hornet. Or even an Intruder or 'Vaark getting the drop on someone! So let me grab you a pint, pull up a chair, and let the bragging begin! "There I was..." Tony p.s.- I assume that the best is probably coming home alive after doing your job, but I wanted to open the floor to some shameless and entertaining bragging As an occasional adversary, my observation is that B/D (whatever they've called them over time...) Tomcat is a much different animal than the A, not just in Ps, but in terms of relatively carefree operation of the jet in BFM (i.e. much better stall margin in the GE motors). Well flown B/D was similar or better than Eagle in my experience. Pressure game was always best in BFM against either jet. Usually led to a premature vertical move by the fighter, a need to come out of the vertical earlier than he wanted, and a rapid transition into a rolling fight which was where the game was now on my terms. However, both have remarkable agility given their size, and pilot ability/experience remains the most common determinant of who wins. IME, the best BFM machine in the US inventory is the Hornet. |
#17
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SNIP
IME, the best BFM machine in the US inventory is the Hornet. Certainly the best in a high alpha, min radius phone booth. OTOH, the F-14B/D can move the fight inexorably upward to a kill. Hard to do, wasteful of gas and time (to say nothing of what this kind of engagement looks like to everyone else near the arena), but doable. In a real-world multi-bogey fight, such a dazzling display would probably result in two fireballs. R / John |
#18
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On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:45:01 -0600, "John Carrier"
wrote: SNIP IME, the best BFM machine in the US inventory is the Hornet. Certainly the best in a high alpha, min radius phone booth. OTOH, the F-14B/D can move the fight inexorably upward to a kill. Hard to do, wasteful of gas and time (to say nothing of what this kind of engagement looks like to everyone else near the arena), but doable. In a real-world multi-bogey fight, such a dazzling display would probably result in two fireballs. R / John And, with that truism, the prosecution rests. Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" www.thunderchief.org |
#19
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#20
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There's got to be some
great stories about bagging an ace, or like you said Ed, taking out an Eagle in a Talon. Or a Scooter bagging a Hornet. Or even an Intruder or 'Vaark getting the drop on someone! So let me grab you a pint, pull up a chair, and let the bragging begin! "There I was..." Tony Tony, There I was in MAWS Medium Attack Warefare school at Whidbey. I think it was mid 80's They sometimes called MAWS Top Bomb. Cdr Roy Lundean was OIC of the school. Other than bombing we also talked about AA stuff and considerations for getting the bad guys to go some place else while you pressed the target to kill a lot of bad guys. Instead of killing one at a time. Our graduation flight was: We had a joint (USAF) attack at Saylor Creek at mountain home AFB the mission was High altitude transit and rendevous with the Varks over Baker VOR Then to the entry point of the low level 200 miles of low altitude with the Varks detaching about 1/2 way around since we didn't go fast enough. Low altitude delivery on various tgts in the range then off target to Mountain home for a landing. I was the strike lead of 8 Intuders and I think there were 4 Varks. I think our load out was constructive Rockeyes and one Aim 9. On the Intruder we could only do boresight shots with the heater. We actually had a few blue tubes so I got one hung on my plane as well as some of the other Intruders. Our tactic during the low altitude was called the goose. I was in the front my wing man was 1 mile at my 6 the rest were in battle box 1 mile abeam each other on back. Roy was dash last so he could evaluate and keep an eye on things. We were opposed by Vipers from Hill AFB. So everything is going great off on the Low level the Varks take a split We see the vipers way up high and they don't see us and go after the varks. About that time we are cooking along at about 420 and here comes 2 F-4's across my nose right to left at about 1 mile. I couldn't believe my luck. (Later we learned they were just some Happy Hooligans out on a low level that crossed through the MOA) About the time I saw them they saw me. I called on tactical the interlopers and decided that I would take a shot at the lead. I had my BN set up the AIM-9 on the ACU, Master Arm ON The lead started a climbing left turn against a clear blue sky I pulled up got a tone took a shot then rolled back right and resumed the LL my wingman shot the F-4 wing man and he resumed. Since they saw us make a move on them they started to return the favor I'm sure at some point when they looked down and relazed the armada of Intruders they just started to roll in on us and after about 3 attacks Roy comes up on guard and tells them to go away they are already dead. Mean while the goose makes it to the Tgt good bombs on tgt. They have smoky sams being shot at us. what fun! We land at Mountain Home and go to the bunker for the debrief. So there is my F-4 kill story. Mean while the Vark guys come in all PO'ed because the viper guys called a shot on them from like 2 miles astearn with 100 knots opening. These Vark guys are screaming in the phone about the BS shot and the viper guys finally admitt that it wasn't a good shot so they were suppost to send them some money. After that we all loaded up and went out to Scrubbys BBQ just off base. Really good place and we always made it a point to go there for lunch on our stops through Mountain Home. Sparky |
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