Power Off Touchdown Autorotation

I saw statistics a while ago on the internet about helicopter accidents in
Australia and do you know who came
out on top. Guess?????

And adding to that, don't omit what it is they're doing with them in
Australia either. They work those machine very hard, way over the limit,
often flown at or above redline. It's no wonder they ball them up pretty
regularly just due the higher risk of what they're doing.

They've had high hours put on them, low or poor maintenance, usually
followed with padding to logs to attempt to hide this.

Considering how hard they're flown, you have to give the little R22 a little
credit. Its' not a bad machine. You just gotta learn to control that
*less* bit of energy a little better than you do in something with a heavier
blade.

There's no arguing that it's less forgiving, that's a fact, but it's nothing
that can't be learned and controlled with "good" instruction. I have done
full downs in R22's but have to admit, they're much less in heavier
machines.

PJ

============================================
Here's to the duck who swam a lake and never lost a feather,
May sometime another year, we all be back together.
JJW
============================================

On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 11:33:33 +0200, "Hennie Roets"
wrote:

Given a choice, I'd do full touch down autos but not in my helicopter.
Ever price new skids? I'll pass on doing full touch downs in a R-22.
In fact, I'll pass on doing anything in a R-22.

Biff I do not think you should write off the R22 that quick.

There are about 80% more new R22 sold than any other helicopter in the
world together. More of them are
used for training than any other heli. If you look at the hours flown
worldwide they fly the most as well.
I saw statistics a while ago on the internet about helicopter accidents in
Australia and do you know who came
out on top. Guess?????
It might not be the most rugged helicopter in the world. I also do not have
the highest inertia in the main
rotor blades but I can tell you if you can safely fly an R22 you will not
have problems with any of the others.


Regards

Hennie

I agree with your comments re flying the R-22 safely. It demands
respect. I have flown them and agree that if you can fly the R-22 you
can pretty much fly anything. I just dont think that the way the R-22
is built I'd be doing full down autos in one if I owned it.

Biff Douglas wrote in message . ..
On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 11:33:33 +0200, "Hennie Roets"
wrote:

Given a choice, I'd do full touch down autos but not in my helicopter.
Ever price new skids? I'll pass on doing full touch downs in a R-22.
In fact, I'll pass on doing anything in a R-22.

Biff I do not think you should write off the R22 that quick.

There are about 80% more new R22 sold than any other helicopter in the
world together. More of them are
used for training than any other heli. If you look at the hours flown
worldwide they fly the most as well.
I saw statistics a while ago on the internet about helicopter accidents in
Australia and do you know who came
out on top. Guess?????
It might not be the most rugged helicopter in the world. I also do not have
the highest inertia in the main
rotor blades but I can tell you if you can safely fly an R22 you will not
have problems with any of the others.


Regards

Hennie

I agree with your comments re flying the R-22 safely. It demands
respect. I have flown them and agree that if you can fly the R-22 you
can pretty much fly anything. I just dont think that the way the R-22
is built I'd be doing full down autos in one if I owned it.
********************************
Why not? Is the R-22 not safe for full down autos? Is your skill or
training level not up to it? Or is it just a matter of dollars? I
don't believe in crashing my car just because it has all the airbags
either but I've driven enough miles that I can avoid most of those
accidents. Same in helicopters and airplanes. Now just watch....I'll
trip over a damned tiedown cable and break my neck at the airport!!!
ggg
Part of what I perceive to be a problem is, if there is too great a
potential for damaging the training equipment, we don't do the
training in that equipment because it costs too much to replace it or
fix it. So, let's just talk about it and not actually do it. Wait
until you are actually faced with the real emergency and see if the
talk works?
I think that kind of training only leads pilots to be shaky in their
own abilities, or on the other side of that coin, to be overconfident.
There it becomes mostly a matter of the individual being able to adapt
to the situation. When I was asked to ferry some Hughes 500's down to
South America, I demanded some recurrent training before I did so.
Hadn't flown one in a few years and wanted to make sure I was up to
speed before I headed south. It included some touchdown autos. No
problems and it certainly made me feel better.
Glad to see some good input and response to this question. Thanks for
your response.
Ol Shy & Bashful

"SelwayKid" wrote in message
om...
"Hennie Roets" wrote in message
...
I know this is a contraversial subject but I had the experience to do
a full down auto in the R22. Maybe I was lucky because I did not
damage the heli and did not even slide on. It was a bit of a rough
landing but otherwise ok. I have a total of apprixmately 300 hours
heli time. Enstrom, Mini 500, R22 etc.
I was never taught to do a full down but Rocky might add some comments
to what I want to say.
I think you should FLY THE HELI UNTILL YOU ARE ON THE GROUND
Just remember even with the low rotor rpm horn sounding you still have
control.
In the R22 you have still got control at 80% rotor rpm but I do not think
it
can be
streched any further.

I might have been lucky with mine but it is a lot easier to just land the
heli than to
do a power recovery.

Regards

Hennie
*****************************
Hennie
One of the things that prompted my original post was recalling that at
most of the helicopter repair shops I have visited, you can nearly
always find a tail boom that was chopped off by a hard landing. I have
been puzzled by that for years and always asked how it happened. In
most cases it was the direct result of a flawed pilot technique in a
full down auto, either actual or practice. I could never figure out
why it happened so often and came to the conclusion it was from poor
pilot technique that came from poor training or just sloppy flying.
With all that I have done with different machines and without further
damage has me wondering. Don't misunderstand me...I'm not the ace of
the base by any means. Did I get lucky and get some superb instruction
(compared to today), or was it just luck?

Rocky, as I never reached the auto stage in full sized heli's (health
defeated me there) I can't say for definite what causes boom strikes, but on
the RC models I've been teaching people to fly for years (well 25 of them)
the boom killer is the cyclic stick position when the skids make contact
with the ground. If there's even a TOUCH of back stick held in after the
flare, the boom is a thing of the past, but a touch of forward cyclic at
that point stops even a badly cacked up auto from turing into a badly cacked
up boom. In fact, some of the guys I've taught to auto do the most
tremendous slide-ons imaginable and don't break anything.

This also applies to powered landings too. No back stick or you've no boom.


Beav

"SelwayKid" wrote in message
om...
Biff Douglas wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 11:33:33 +0200, "Hennie Roets"
wrote:

Given a choice, I'd do full touch down autos but not in my helicopter.
Ever price new skids? I'll pass on doing full touch downs in a R-22.
In fact, I'll pass on doing anything in a R-22.

Biff I do not think you should write off the R22 that quick.

There are about 80% more new R22 sold than any other helicopter in the
world together. More of them are
used for training than any other heli. If you look at the hours flown
worldwide they fly the most as well.
I saw statistics a while ago on the internet about helicopter accidents
in
Australia and do you know who came
out on top. Guess?????
It might not be the most rugged helicopter in the world. I also do not
have
the highest inertia in the main
rotor blades but I can tell you if you can safely fly an R22 you will
not
have problems with any of the others.


Regards

Hennie

I agree with your comments re flying the R-22 safely. It demands
respect. I have flown them and agree that if you can fly the R-22 you
can pretty much fly anything. I just dont think that the way the R-22
is built I'd be doing full down autos in one if I owned it.
********************************
Why not? Is the R-22 not safe for full down autos? Is your skill or
training level not up to it? Or is it just a matter of dollars? I
don't believe in crashing my car just because it has all the airbags
either but I've driven enough miles that I can avoid most of those
accidents. Same in helicopters and airplanes. Now just watch....I'll
trip over a damned tiedown cable and break my neck at the airport!!!
ggg

You shouldn't even joke about it Rocky:-)

A pal of mine ran a full weekend on the racetrack with his "pretty" quick
motorcycle (trackbike special 200mph+) and walking back to his car/trailer,
he tripped and landed on his elbow. It blew up like it'd been hit with a
sledgehammer. For a full year he could barely use his arm and even now he
still can't straighten it.

So that's two useless elbows he's got now:-)) (He did bust the other on his
bike a few years earlier)


Beav

On Sat, 4 Dec 2004 22:00:10 -0000, "Beav"
wrote:


"SelwayKid" wrote in message
. com...
"Hennie Roets" wrote in message
...
I know this is a contraversial subject but I had the experience to do
a full down auto in the R22. Maybe I was lucky because I did not
damage the heli and did not even slide on. It was a bit of a rough
landing but otherwise ok. I have a total of apprixmately 300 hours
heli time. Enstrom, Mini 500, R22 etc.
I was never taught to do a full down but Rocky might add some comments
to what I want to say.
I think you should FLY THE HELI UNTILL YOU ARE ON THE GROUND
Just remember even with the low rotor rpm horn sounding you still have
control.
In the R22 you have still got control at 80% rotor rpm but I do not think
it
can be
streched any further.

I might have been lucky with mine but it is a lot easier to just land the
heli than to
do a power recovery.

Regards

Hennie
*****************************
Hennie
One of the things that prompted my original post was recalling that at
most of the helicopter repair shops I have visited, you can nearly
always find a tail boom that was chopped off by a hard landing. I have
been puzzled by that for years and always asked how it happened. In
most cases it was the direct result of a flawed pilot technique in a
full down auto, either actual or practice. I could never figure out
why it happened so often and came to the conclusion it was from poor
pilot technique that came from poor training or just sloppy flying.
With all that I have done with different machines and without further
damage has me wondering. Don't misunderstand me...I'm not the ace of
the base by any means. Did I get lucky and get some superb instruction
(compared to today), or was it just luck?

Rocky, as I never reached the auto stage in full sized heli's (health
defeated me there) I can't say for definite what causes boom strikes, but on
the RC models I've been teaching people to fly for years (well 25 of them)
the boom killer is the cyclic stick position when the skids make contact
with the ground. If there's even a TOUCH of back stick held in after the
flare, the boom is a thing of the past, but a touch of forward cyclic at
that point stops even a badly cacked up auto from turing into a badly cacked
up boom. In fact, some of the guys I've taught to auto do the most
tremendous slide-ons imaginable and don't break anything.

This also applies to powered landings too. No back stick or you've no boom.


Beav


Beav, it really depends on the helicopter on how much aft cyclic if
any at all. In all the one's that I fly you keep a slight aft cyclic.
Most helicopters mast is tilted forward (an A-Star is 2 degree's if I
recall right), and any forward cyclic you go skidding for a pretty
good distance. Not something you really want. A little aft and you can
stop in 5-10 feet. And all this without the tailboom getting hit.

I bet the ones that the tailboom are getting whacked are mainly two
bladed copters, low RPM (bad flair), and the pilot has a hefty aft
cyclic when he is hitting the runway. And I bet the decent hasn't been
slowed down like it should have been.

-Mark

Beav wrote:
"SelwayKid" wrote in message
om...
Biff Douglas wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 11:33:33 +0200, "Hennie Roets"
wrote:

Given a choice, I'd do full touch down autos but not in my
helicopter.
Ever price new skids? I'll pass on doing full touch downs in a
R-22.
In fact, I'll pass on doing anything in a R-22.

Biff I do not think you should write off the R22 that quick.

There are about 80% more new R22 sold than any other helicopter
in the
world together. More of them are
used for training than any other heli. If you look at the hours
flown
worldwide they fly the most as well.
I saw statistics a while ago on the internet about helicopter
accidents
in
Australia and do you know who came
out on top. Guess?????
It might not be the most rugged helicopter in the world. I also
do not
have
the highest inertia in the main
rotor blades but I can tell you if you can safely fly an R22 you
will
not
have problems with any of the others.


Regards

Hennie

I agree with your comments re flying the R-22 safely. It demands
respect. I have flown them and agree that if you can fly the R-22
you
can pretty much fly anything. I just dont think that the way the
R-22
is built I'd be doing full down autos in one if I owned it.
********************************
Why not? Is the R-22 not safe for full down autos? Is your skill or
training level not up to it? Or is it just a matter of dollars? I
don't believe in crashing my car just because it has all the
airbags
either but I've driven enough miles that I can avoid most of those
accidents. Same in helicopters and airplanes. Now just
watch....I'll
trip over a damned tiedown cable and break my neck at the
airport!!!
ggg

You shouldn't even joke about it Rocky:-)

Beav
Why not joke? Sure beats crying! I've been so beat up/busted
up/shot/stabbed and generally treated ugly that it doesn't matter
anymore! I've walked into wings, rotor blades, tail rotors,(mostly at
night) tripped over tie downs, slipped on ice and oil, and wondered why
I ever bothered to get into aviation?
Still, in at least 18 mayday situations, I've only really been injured
once in aircraft. Night time in a phyxed wing with an engine failure
over the pine swamps. Just another adventure...... BTW, shootings and
stabbings are for real.
Rocky

A pal of mine ran a full weekend on the racetrack with his "pretty"
quick
motorcycle (trackbike special 200mph+) and walking back to his
car/trailer,
he tripped and landed on his elbow. It blew up like it'd been hit
with a
sledgehammer. For a full year he could barely use his arm and even
now he
still can't straighten it.

So that's two useless elbows he's got now:-)) (He did bust the other
on his
bike a few years earlier)


Beav

hellothere.adelphia.net wrote in message
...
On Sat, 4 Dec 2004 22:00:10 -0000, "Beav"
wrote:


"SelwayKid" wrote in message
.com...
"Hennie Roets" wrote in message
...
I know this is a contraversial subject but I had the experience to do
a full down auto in the R22. Maybe I was lucky because I did not
damage the heli and did not even slide on. It was a bit of a rough
landing but otherwise ok. I have a total of apprixmately 300 hours
heli time. Enstrom, Mini 500, R22 etc.
I was never taught to do a full down but Rocky might add some comments
to what I want to say.
I think you should FLY THE HELI UNTILL YOU ARE ON THE GROUND
Just remember even with the low rotor rpm horn sounding you still have
control.
In the R22 you have still got control at 80% rotor rpm but I do not
think
it
can be
streched any further.

I might have been lucky with mine but it is a lot easier to just land
the
heli than to
do a power recovery.

Regards

Hennie
*****************************
Hennie
One of the things that prompted my original post was recalling that at
most of the helicopter repair shops I have visited, you can nearly
always find a tail boom that was chopped off by a hard landing. I have
been puzzled by that for years and always asked how it happened. In
most cases it was the direct result of a flawed pilot technique in a
full down auto, either actual or practice. I could never figure out
why it happened so often and came to the conclusion it was from poor
pilot technique that came from poor training or just sloppy flying.
With all that I have done with different machines and without further
damage has me wondering. Don't misunderstand me...I'm not the ace of
the base by any means. Did I get lucky and get some superb instruction
(compared to today), or was it just luck?

Rocky, as I never reached the auto stage in full sized heli's (health
defeated me there) I can't say for definite what causes boom strikes, but
on
the RC models I've been teaching people to fly for years (well 25 of them)
the boom killer is the cyclic stick position when the skids make contact
with the ground. If there's even a TOUCH of back stick held in after the
flare, the boom is a thing of the past, but a touch of forward cyclic at
that point stops even a badly cacked up auto from turing into a badly
cacked
up boom. In fact, some of the guys I've taught to auto do the most
tremendous slide-ons imaginable and don't break anything.

This also applies to powered landings too. No back stick or you've no
boom.


Beav


Beav, it really depends on the helicopter on how much aft cyclic if
any at all. In all the one's that I fly you keep a slight aft cyclic.
Most helicopters mast is tilted forward (an A-Star is 2 degree's if I
recall right), and any forward cyclic you go skidding for a pretty
good distance. Not something you really want. A little aft and you can
stop in 5-10 feet. And all this without the tailboom getting hit.

That forward tilt on the mast would make up for the difference I would
imagine Mark, and it's something I forgot about. (I know the 206 has a
forward AND a sideways tilt built in, but it slipped my mind). I didin't
know the Squirrel (A-Star) did though. Thanks for the info.

I bet the ones that the tailboom are getting whacked are mainly two
bladed copters, low RPM (bad flair), and the pilot has a hefty aft
cyclic when he is hitting the runway. And I bet the decent hasn't been
slowed down like it should have been.

Most of the models are two bladers, with blades that are free to move within
the grips. If these slow down, the lag is sufficient that a handful of
collective can see a blade hooked under the vertical stab, and that's not
even REALLY slowed down. Even at these rpm, the blades are still lifting and
no out of the ordinary coning is happening. Mind you, I bet you full size
guys would LOVE the blade rigidity that we RC guys have. We can pick up the
whole machine by the blade tips:-) They don't flex much as you can guess:-)

Beav

wrote in message
oups.com...

Beav wrote:
"SelwayKid" wrote in message
om...
Biff Douglas wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 11:33:33 +0200, "Hennie Roets"
wrote:

Given a choice, I'd do full touch down autos but not in my
helicopter.
Ever price new skids? I'll pass on doing full touch downs in a
R-22.
In fact, I'll pass on doing anything in a R-22.

Biff I do not think you should write off the R22 that quick.

There are about 80% more new R22 sold than any other helicopter
in the
world together. More of them are
used for training than any other heli. If you look at the hours
flown
worldwide they fly the most as well.
I saw statistics a while ago on the internet about helicopter
accidents
in
Australia and do you know who came
out on top. Guess?????
It might not be the most rugged helicopter in the world. I also
do not
have
the highest inertia in the main
rotor blades but I can tell you if you can safely fly an R22 you
will
not
have problems with any of the others.


Regards

Hennie

I agree with your comments re flying the R-22 safely. It demands
respect. I have flown them and agree that if you can fly the R-22
you
can pretty much fly anything. I just dont think that the way the
R-22
is built I'd be doing full down autos in one if I owned it.
********************************
Why not? Is the R-22 not safe for full down autos? Is your skill or
training level not up to it? Or is it just a matter of dollars? I
don't believe in crashing my car just because it has all the
airbags
either but I've driven enough miles that I can avoid most of those
accidents. Same in helicopters and airplanes. Now just
watch....I'll
trip over a damned tiedown cable and break my neck at the
airport!!!
ggg

You shouldn't even joke about it Rocky:-)

Beav
Why not joke? Sure beats crying!

Well go one then, I did :-))

I've been so beat up/busted
up/shot/stabbed and generally treated ugly that it doesn't matter
anymore! I've walked into wings, rotor blades, tail rotors,(mostly at
night) tripped over tie downs, slipped on ice and oil, and wondered why
I ever bothered to get into aviation?

I think in your shoes I'd be wondering why I ever got out of BED!! :-)))

Still, in at least 18 mayday situations, I've only really been injured
once in aircraft.

I congratulate you Rockster, that's a bloody good record in anyone's book.

Night time in a phyxed wing with an engine failure
over the pine swamps. Just another adventure...... BTW, shootings and
stabbings are for real.

I didn't doubt it for a second.

I *WAS* going to say "Take care", but I have a feeling it'd fall on deaf
ears, so I'll just say "Keep it up" instead

And keep up with the histories, they make fascinating reading.



Beav

Beav
You guys always make me laugh with your wry sense of humor! For a while
my wife would walk in the door and ask me, "Well, what have you done
today to damage your beautiful body?"...(she has this illusion that I
am special) and it got to the laughable point she'd nearly do a strip
search checking for bloody areas. At least I have gotten over it for at
least the past 12 months or so. Hmmmm, perhaps I should go risk my neck
again..
On the helicopter side, there has been a lot of discussion about the
relative merits of different machines for touchdown autos over in
JustHelicopters forum. there are some pretty abrasive people there and
some who will jerk your chain just because, but if you can get past
that and learn how to navigate the posts, there is a plethora of deep
solid information to be gained.
Trying to think of the different helicopters I've done full down autos
in will include the Bell 47 series(lots of them), Hughes 269/300 (dates
me huh?), H-500 series, Hiller 12 series, Bell 206, UH-1,
R-22(yeehaww), Enstrom F28, probably some others that I can't think of
at the moment.
A technique we learned in the USMC while working down under was to just
simply roll inverted and autorotate for a rapid gain in altitude ; )
Merry Christmas y'all
Ol Shy & Bashful aka Rocky