After an annual?

Bob Noel wrote:
In article . com,
"Robert M. Gary" wrote:
Section 91.407: Operation after maintenance, preventive maintenance,
rebuilding, or alteration.
(b) No person may carry any person (other than crewmembers) in an
aircraft that has been maintained, rebuilt, or altered in a manner that
may have appreciably changed its flight characteristics or
substantially affected its operation in flight until an appropriately
rated pilot with at least a private pilot certificate flies the
aircraft, makes an operational check of the maintenance performed or
alteration made, and logs the flight in the aircraft records.

How would an engine overhaul have changed the aircraft's flight characteristics?

" or substantially affected its operation in flight "

Seriously, I really don't see how 91.407 requires a flight test. Heck, even the
STC to install the 160hp engine in my cherokee didn't require a flight test.

"characteristics or substantially affected its operation in flight
until an appropriately
rated pilot with at least a private pilot certificate flies the
aircraft"

-Robert

wrote:
On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 02:22:34 GMT, "Jim Carter"
wrote:
I defy you to find ANY aviation maintenance facility in the United
States that has a policy of performing a CFR-defined "test flight"
after ANY routine periodic inspection or general "maintenance" prior
to approval for return to service.

Nor do they eat Fruit Loops first, but let's get back to the
discussion. We're talking about taking and engine out, taking all the
little pieces of the engine off, putting it all back together and then
putting it on the airplane. Certainly not "general 'maintenance'".

-Robert

wrote:
On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 02:22:34 GMT, "Jim Carter"
wrote:
I defy you to find ANY aviation maintenance facility in the United
States that has a policy of performing a CFR-defined "test flight"
after ANY routine periodic inspection or general "maintenance" prior
to approval for return to service.

Changing the subject back to replacing the engine... I have yet to find
ANY shop that doesn't require this. When I pick up a plane from a
generic shop they usually expect me to do the flight and make the log
entry. Working with the factory service centers they always test fly it
themselves and make the log entry. What shop do you know that replaces
the engine of an airplane and doesn't do a RTS flight?

-Robert

On 19 Dec 2006 20:02:13 -0800, "Robert M. Gary"
wrote:

snip

Changing the subject back to replacing the engine... I have yet to find
ANY shop that doesn't require this. When I pick up a plane from a
generic shop they usually expect me to do the flight and make the log
entry. Working with the factory service centers they always test fly it
themselves and make the log entry. What shop do you know that replaces
the engine of an airplane and doesn't do a RTS flight?

-Robert

Gee Bob;

BTW, I'm not the one changing the subject.

If you don't want to take my word for it, let's have a show of hands.
How many owners here have an airframe logbook showing an engine
change or other routine maintenance with a "test flight" entry in it?

An engine change is routine maintenance, dude. Perhaps after you've
performed a hundred or so, you might come to the same conclusion.

I would hope that on your "generic shop" experiences, the required
maintenance record entry states that the aircraft in question is
approved for return to service pending a "test flight", otherwise you
would be leaving the surface of the earth contrary to the CFR. The
"factory service center" verbage should be similiar.

If the AMM of the aircraft in question has a requirement and
parameters for a "test flight" after engine change, I would do it.
Just like if it says if I remove all the screws from a leading edge,
or remove more than 3 panels on a leading edge it needs a stall series
performed. Doesn't specifically call out the CFR either-strange...

The "factory service centers" I deal with now don't have the staffing
nor the insurance to keep trained crews available to fly customer
aircraft.

The "factory service centers" I used to deal with would NOT fly any
aircraft that I was responsible for-it was bad enuff when I was forced
to let them perform maintenance.

Don't assume that I've never flown an aircraft personally before
returning it to a customer after inspection/maintenance, or that I
didn't put at least one flight hour on ANY engine install sitting in
the LH seat.

But it is not a clear-cut requirement under the CFR, was not performed
as such, and was not logged as such in the maintenance records.

Unless the airframe manufacturer has it written into the AMM (CFR
"test flight" after maintenance), or the repair station certificate of
the facility in question contains a similiar statement, it is not
required under the CFR.

TC

Robert M. Gary wrote:

Isn't that required by regulation (although only minimum crew is
allowed)? Doesn't the pilot have to sign the aircraft log as RTS after
the break in?


We recently had a guy orbiting our home field for what seemed like
forever after an engine swap.

-----Original Message-----
From: ]
Posted At: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 9:28 PM
Posted To: rec.aviation.owning
Conversation: After an annual?
Subject: After an annual?

On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 02:22:34 GMT, "Jim Carter"
wrote:

snip

I haven't seen it done either, but what about the phrase "...may have
appreciably changed its flight characteristics or substantially
affected
its operation in flight"? That could easily mean an annual inspection
where access panels and floor boards were removed or where control
cables were disconnected and lubed, or any other type maintenance
that
might impact safety of flight. I think this is a really good question
that has been raised and I would expect the attorneys to think
likewise.


time out. please stop.

I defy you to find ANY aviation maintenance facility in the United
States that has a policy of performing a CFR-defined "test flight"
after ANY routine periodic inspection or general "maintenance" prior
to approval for return to service.

BTW, if it isn't written into the logbooks as such, technically, it
didn't happen.


I don't disagree with you, but the discussion isn't about common
practice -- the discussion was about the part of the FAR that required a
return-to-service test. There are lots of laws in the land that people
violate every day, but when brought to the attention of authorities
during investigations they are enforced.

The question dealt with enforcement of the FAR 91.407 which requires the
test after an activity that may affect handling my words.

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"B A R R Y дµÀ£º
"
Robert M. Gary wrote:

Isn't that required by regulation (although only minimum crew is
allowed)? Doesn't the pilot have to sign the aircraft log as RTS after
the break in?


We recently had a guy orbiting our home field for what seemed like
forever after an engine swap.

I was the first one to fly my airplane with an overhauled engine. I
recorded the flight parameters in the logbook just as a record that I did
what was recommended by the overhaul shop.

wrote in message
...

On 19 Dec 2006 20:02:13 -0800, "Robert M. Gary"
wrote:

snip

Changing the subject back to replacing the engine... I have yet to find
ANY shop that doesn't require this. When I pick up a plane from a
generic shop they usually expect me to do the flight and make the log
entry. Working with the factory service centers they always test fly it
themselves and make the log entry. What shop do you know that replaces
the engine of an airplane and doesn't do a RTS flight?

-Robert

Gee Bob;

BTW, I'm not the one changing the subject.

If you don't want to take my word for it, let's have a show of hands.
How many owners here have an airframe logbook showing an engine
change or other routine maintenance with a "test flight" entry in it?

An engine change is routine maintenance, dude. Perhaps after you've
performed a hundred or so, you might come to the same conclusion.

I would hope that on your "generic shop" experiences, the required
maintenance record entry states that the aircraft in question is
approved for return to service pending a "test flight", otherwise you
would be leaving the surface of the earth contrary to the CFR. The
"factory service center" verbage should be similiar.

If the AMM of the aircraft in question has a requirement and
parameters for a "test flight" after engine change, I would do it.
Just like if it says if I remove all the screws from a leading edge,
or remove more than 3 panels on a leading edge it needs a stall series
performed. Doesn't specifically call out the CFR either-strange...

The "factory service centers" I deal with now don't have the staffing
nor the insurance to keep trained crews available to fly customer
aircraft.

The "factory service centers" I used to deal with would NOT fly any
aircraft that I was responsible for-it was bad enuff when I was forced
to let them perform maintenance.

Don't assume that I've never flown an aircraft personally before
returning it to a customer after inspection/maintenance, or that I
didn't put at least one flight hour on ANY engine install sitting in
the LH seat.

But it is not a clear-cut requirement under the CFR, was not performed
as such, and was not logged as such in the maintenance records.

Unless the airframe manufacturer has it written into the AMM (CFR
"test flight" after maintenance), or the repair station certificate of
the facility in question contains a similiar statement, it is not
required under the CFR.

TC

B A R R Y wrote:
Robert M. Gary wrote:

Isn't that required by regulation (although only minimum crew is
allowed)? Doesn't the pilot have to sign the aircraft log as RTS after
the break in?


We recently had a guy orbiting our home field for what seemed like
forever after an engine swap.

I did this after my recent fuel servo overhaul. It was a good idea too
because the engine flat died before I was able to lean it to a normal
cruise mixture.

-Robert

wrote:
On 19 Dec 2006 20:02:13 -0800, "Robert M. Gary"
wrote:
The "factory service centers" I deal with now don't have the staffing
nor the insurance to keep trained crews available to fly customer
aircraft.

The "factory service centers" I used to deal with would NOT fly any
aircraft that I was responsible for-it was bad enuff when I was forced
to let them perform maintenance.

My experience is mostly with Mooney shops. However, I've worked with
several. Not a single plane goes out of any of them for anything more
than an oil change w/o a test flight by a 'test pilot'. In fact they
all do pre-annual test flights before starting the annual.
I know the Cirrus shops are the same. I've not worked with Cessna or
Piper though. Perhaps they don't fly their own airplanes.

-Robert