Russian Carrier Plans Part One

On Mon, 03 Dec 2007 19:15:16 -0700, Fred J. McCall
wrote:

(Richard Casady) wrote:

:On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 19:09:47 -0700, Fred J. McCall
wrote:
:
:If mere money would do it, Saudi Arabia would have a huge carrier
:aviation organization.
:
:They don't.
:
:
:I think ...
:

No, you don't, and that's the root of your problem.

:
:... not wanting any has more to do with it. Argentina had a
:carrier, after all.
:

Argentina had several (serially). They never built one. They never
operated the old obsolete ones they purchased at all effectively. They
were quite small and operated only small numbers of obsolescent
aircraft.

This is the example you want to use to prove that Russia can ab initio
create modern carrier strike groups faster than ANY nation has ever
managed to do?

No mention of Russia anywhere near my post. The comparison was
Argentina and Saudi Arabia. The Russians do seem willing to sell
anything to anybody. And the Saudis have got the cash. The question of
WTF would the arabs want with a second rate carrier force seems to
have been answered: they don't want it. They maybe need a few boats
with 57mm or three inch. They need a coast guard, is all.

Casady

(Richard Casady) wrote:

:On Mon, 03 Dec 2007 19:15:16 -0700, Fred J. McCall
wrote:
:
(Richard Casady) wrote:
:
::On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 19:09:47 -0700, Fred J. McCall
wrote:
::
::If mere money would do it, Saudi Arabia would have a huge carrier
::aviation organization.
::
::They don't.
::
::
::I think ...
::
:
:No, you don't, and that's the root of your problem.
:
::
::... not wanting any has more to do with it. Argentina had a
::carrier, after all.
::
:
:Argentina had several (serially). They never built one. They never
:operated the old obsolete ones they purchased at all effectively. They
:were quite small and operated only small numbers of obsolescent
:aircraft.
:
:This is the example you want to use to prove that Russia can ab initio
:create modern carrier strike groups faster than ANY nation has ever
:managed to do?
:
:No mention of Russia anywhere near my post. The comparison was
:Argentina and Saudi Arabia. The Russians do seem willing to sell
:anything to anybody. And the Saudis have got the cash. The question of
:WTF would the arabs want with a second rate carrier force seems to
:have been answered: they don't want it. They maybe need a few boats
:with 57mm or three inch. They need a coast guard, is all.
:

Read the subject line. Then follow the thread back so you know what
the hell is being talked about.


--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson

tankfixer wrote:

:In article ,
says...
: tankfixer wrote:
:
: :In article ,
: says...
: : tankfixer wrote:
: :
: : :In article ,
: : says...
: : :
: : : You do realize that the Sea of Okhotsk is surrounded by RUSSIAN land,
: : : right? No sane US admiral would take a force up there during active
: : : hostilities.
: : :
: : :You don't have to enter it. just deny a couple of exit's and Vladivostok
: : :is worthless.
: : :
: :
: : And positioning to deny those exits leaves you in a fixed position and
: : vulnerable to huge land-based air assets.
: :
: :Maybe in the old days it did, but now ?
: :
:
: Making up more ignorance while you scurry about trying to move the
: goalposts?
:
:
:What huge fleet of aircraft do the Russians operate nowdays ?
:

There are (at least) 4 aviation regiments attached directly to the
Russian Pacific Fleet.

Or are you one of those silly people who think all the hardware just
magically evaporated with the fall of the Soviet Union?

:
:
: :
: :And why would I be on the surface in the first place ?
: :
:
: Who said you were? Why do you think that makes a difference? Do you
: stupidly believe that submarines are invulnerable to aircraft?
:
: [Keep moving those goalposts.]
:
:
:They have to find em first..
:

When you're sitting in one place to block a choke point that gets a
lot easier to do. It pretty well limits the volume of ocean you can
be sitting in, which makes finding you (or sanitizing that volume of
ocean) much easier.

:
: : : : I'm not sure precisely what you have in mind, but the size of Russia's
: : : : Navy has nothing to do with it. You're close enough inshore so that
: : : : airplanes will blow your ass off if you try to sit in there.
: : : :
: : : :
: : : :Yes, that is the problem the Russian face in trying to get out of
: : : :Vladivostok....
: : : :
: : :
: : : Except most of it is RUSSIAN land...
: : :
: : :That will be news to Japan and Korea(north and south)
: : :
: :
: : Might I suggest you look up the meaning of 'most' and realize that it
: : doesn't equate to 'all'?
: :
: :"most" of that land is just a hinderance to navigation.
: :Even the Russian bits.
: :
: :The important parts are NOT Russian.
: :
:
: The important parts to whom and for what?
:
:The parts the Russians would have to pass by
:

Check a map. Look north.

:
:
: [Shift some more...]
:
: :
: :
: : No, it won't be news to either Japan or Korea. They can read maps,
: : you see...
: :
: :
: :I'm not the one who keeps discounting them..
: :
:
: Gee, neither am I. You are, however, the one that is unable to read
: either a Usenet article, a map, or anything written on naval tactics.
:
: And the change from shifting the goalposts to outright lying was a
: nice change on your part.
:
:I guess since you can't win you resort to name calling. Oh well
:

If you don't like people pointing out you're shifting your claims all
over the place and lying, stop shifting your claims all over the place
and stop lying.


--
"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the
soul with evil."
-- Socrates

In article ,
says...
tankfixer wrote:

:In article ,
says...
: tankfixer wrote:
:
: :In article ,
: says...
: : tankfixer wrote:
: :
: : :In article ,
: : says...
: : :
: : : You do realize that the Sea of Okhotsk is surrounded by RUSSIAN land,
: : : right? No sane US admiral would take a force up there during active
: : : hostilities.
: : :
: : :You don't have to enter it. just deny a couple of exit's and Vladivostok
: : :is worthless.
: : :
: :
: : And positioning to deny those exits leaves you in a fixed position and
: : vulnerable to huge land-based air assets.
: :
: :Maybe in the old days it did, but now ?
: :
:
: Making up more ignorance while you scurry about trying to move the
: goalposts?
:
:
:What huge fleet of aircraft do the Russians operate nowdays ?
:

There are (at least) 4 aviation regiments attached directly to the
Russian Pacific Fleet.

Or are you one of those silly people who think all the hardware just
magically evaporated with the fall of the Soviet Union?

Didn't evaporate, it just corroded away.


:
:
: :
: :And why would I be on the surface in the first place ?
: :
:
: Who said you were? Why do you think that makes a difference? Do you
: stupidly believe that submarines are invulnerable to aircraft?
:
: [Keep moving those goalposts.]
:
:
:They have to find em first..
:

When you're sitting in one place to block a choke point that gets a
lot easier to do. It pretty well limits the volume of ocean you can
be sitting in, which makes finding you (or sanitizing that volume of
ocean) much easier.

:
: : : : I'm not sure precisely what you have in mind, but the size of Russia's
: : : : Navy has nothing to do with it. You're close enough inshore so that
: : : : airplanes will blow your ass off if you try to sit in there.
: : : :
: : : :
: : : :Yes, that is the problem the Russian face in trying to get out of
: : : :Vladivostok....
: : : :
: : :
: : : Except most of it is RUSSIAN land...
: : :
: : :That will be news to Japan and Korea(north and south)
: : :
: :
: : Might I suggest you look up the meaning of 'most' and realize that it
: : doesn't equate to 'all'?
: :
: :"most" of that land is just a hinderance to navigation.
: :Even the Russian bits.
: :
: :The important parts are NOT Russian.
: :
:
: The important parts to whom and for what?
:
:The parts the Russians would have to pass by
:

Check a map. Look north.

Nice place for a some mines....



:
:
: [Shift some more...]
:
: :
: :
: : No, it won't be news to either Japan or Korea. They can read maps,
: : you see...
: :
: :
: :I'm not the one who keeps discounting them..
: :
:
: Gee, neither am I. You are, however, the one that is unable to read
: either a Usenet article, a map, or anything written on naval tactics.
:
: And the change from shifting the goalposts to outright lying was a
: nice change on your part.
:
:I guess since you can't win you resort to name calling. Oh well
:

If you don't like people pointing out you're shifting your claims all
over the place and lying, stop shifting your claims all over the place
and stop lying.

I see you like to use old tactic of calling someone a liar when they
refuse to accept your claims and the all mighty truth.

tankfixer wrote:

:In article ,
says...
: tankfixer wrote:
:
: :In article ,
: says...
: : tankfixer wrote:
: :
: : :In article ,
: : says...
: : : tankfixer wrote:
: : :
: : : :In article ,
: : : says...
: : : :
: : : : You do realize that the Sea of Okhotsk is surrounded by RUSSIAN land,
: : : : right? No sane US admiral would take a force up there during active
: : : : hostilities.
: : : :
: : : :You don't have to enter it. just deny a couple of exit's and Vladivostok
: : : :is worthless.
: : : :
: : :
: : : And positioning to deny those exits leaves you in a fixed position and
: : : vulnerable to huge land-based air assets.
: : :
: : :Maybe in the old days it did, but now ?
: : :
: :
: : Making up more ignorance while you scurry about trying to move the
: : goalposts?
: :
: :
: :What huge fleet of aircraft do the Russians operate nowdays ?
: :
:
: There are (at least) 4 aviation regiments attached directly to the
: Russian Pacific Fleet.
:
: Or are you one of those silly people who think all the hardware just
: magically evaporated with the fall of the Soviet Union?
:
idn't evaporate, it just corroded away.
:

Not so much. You know airplanes are made out of aluminum, right?

One more time. There are (at least) 4 aviation regiments attached
directly to the Russian Pacific Fleet.

:
:
: :
: :
: : :
: : :And why would I be on the surface in the first place ?
: : :
: :
: : Who said you were? Why do you think that makes a difference? Do you
: : stupidly believe that submarines are invulnerable to aircraft?
: :
: : [Keep moving those goalposts.]
: :
: :
: :They have to find em first..
: :
:
: When you're sitting in one place to block a choke point that gets a
: lot easier to do. It pretty well limits the volume of ocean you can
: be sitting in, which makes finding you (or sanitizing that volume of
: ocean) much easier.
:
: :
: : : : : I'm not sure precisely what you have in mind, but the size of Russia's
: : : : : Navy has nothing to do with it. You're close enough inshore so that
: : : : : airplanes will blow your ass off if you try to sit in there.
: : : : :
: : : : :
: : : : :Yes, that is the problem the Russian face in trying to get out of
: : : : :Vladivostok....
: : : : :
: : : :
: : : : Except most of it is RUSSIAN land...
: : : :
: : : :That will be news to Japan and Korea(north and south)
: : : :
: : :
: : : Might I suggest you look up the meaning of 'most' and realize that it
: : : doesn't equate to 'all'?
: : :
: : :"most" of that land is just a hinderance to navigation.
: : :Even the Russian bits.
: : :
: : :The important parts are NOT Russian.
: : :
: :
: : The important parts to whom and for what?
: :
: :The parts the Russians would have to pass by
: :
:
: Check a map. Look north.
:
:Nice place for a some mines....
:

So we see it go from a surface force to subs to mines. Nothing like
shifting those claims, is there?

You think the Russians don't have minesweepers?

:
:
: :
: :
: : [Shift some more...]
: :
: : :
: : :
: : : No, it won't be news to either Japan or Korea. They can read maps,
: : : you see...
: : :
: : :
: : :I'm not the one who keeps discounting them..
: : :
: :
: : Gee, neither am I. You are, however, the one that is unable to read
: : either a Usenet article, a map, or anything written on naval tactics.
: :
: : And the change from shifting the goalposts to outright lying was a
: : nice change on your part.
: :
: :I guess since you can't win you resort to name calling. Oh well
: :
:
: If you don't like people pointing out you're shifting your claims all
: over the place and lying, stop shifting your claims all over the place
: and stop lying.
:
:I see you like to use old tactic of calling someone a liar when they
:refuse to accept your claims and the all mighty truth.
:

I'm not responsible for your myopia. I'm also not responsible for
your lack of veracity. I'm REALLY not responsible for your lack of
intellectual integrity.

I called you a liar because you lied.

Just what did I 'discount', you lying little sack of turds?

Keep shifting and lying. I'll keep calling you a shifty liar.

It only seems appropriate...


--
"You take the lies out of him, and he'll shrink to the size of
your hat; you take the malice out of him, and he'll disappear."
-- Mark Twain

In article ,
says...
tankfixer wrote:

:In article ,
says...
: tankfixer wrote:
:
: :In article ,
: says...
: : tankfixer wrote:
: :
: : :In article ,
: : says...
: : : tankfixer wrote:
: : :
: : : :In article ,
: : : says...
: : : :
: : : : You do realize that the Sea of Okhotsk is surrounded by RUSSIAN land,
: : : : right? No sane US admiral would take a force up there during active
: : : : hostilities.
: : : :
: : : :You don't have to enter it. just deny a couple of exit's and Vladivostok
: : : :is worthless.
: : : :
: : :
: : : And positioning to deny those exits leaves you in a fixed position and
: : : vulnerable to huge land-based air assets.
: : :
: : :Maybe in the old days it did, but now ?
: : :
: :
: : Making up more ignorance while you scurry about trying to move the
: : goalposts?
: :
: :
: :What huge fleet of aircraft do the Russians operate nowdays ?
: :
:
: There are (at least) 4 aviation regiments attached directly to the
: Russian Pacific Fleet.
:
: Or are you one of those silly people who think all the hardware just
: magically evaporated with the fall of the Soviet Union?
:
idn't evaporate, it just corroded away.
:

Not so much. You know airplanes are made out of aluminum, right?

Yes, which is why i used the word "corroded" instead of "rusted".

They also contain significant amounts of magnisium, steel and even a
good bit of copper.



One more time. There are (at least) 4 aviation regiments attached
directly to the Russian Pacific Fleet.

With an assigned operational strength of what ?
25 aircraft ?




:
:
: :
: :
: : :
: : :And why would I be on the surface in the first place ?
: : :
: :
: : Who said you were? Why do you think that makes a difference? Do you
: : stupidly believe that submarines are invulnerable to aircraft?
: :
: : [Keep moving those goalposts.]
: :
: :
: :They have to find em first..
: :
:
: When you're sitting in one place to block a choke point that gets a
: lot easier to do. It pretty well limits the volume of ocean you can
: be sitting in, which makes finding you (or sanitizing that volume of
: ocean) much easier.
:
: :
: : : : : I'm not sure precisely what you have in mind, but the size of Russia's
: : : : : Navy has nothing to do with it. You're close enough inshore so that
: : : : : airplanes will blow your ass off if you try to sit in there.
: : : : :
: : : : :
: : : : :Yes, that is the problem the Russian face in trying to get out of
: : : : :Vladivostok....
: : : : :
: : : :
: : : : Except most of it is RUSSIAN land...
: : : :
: : : :That will be news to Japan and Korea(north and south)
: : : :
: : :
: : : Might I suggest you look up the meaning of 'most' and realize that it
: : : doesn't equate to 'all'?
: : :
: : :"most" of that land is just a hinderance to navigation.
: : :Even the Russian bits.
: : :
: : :The important parts are NOT Russian.
: : :
: :
: : The important parts to whom and for what?
: :
: :The parts the Russians would have to pass by
: :
:
: Check a map. Look north.
:
:Nice place for a some mines....
:

So we see it go from a surface force to subs to mines. Nothing like
shifting those claims, is there?

Actually you assumed it would be surface forces my friend. I never
stated they would be.
If you can't deal with a varied threat perhaps you might stick to
something safe like checkers.



You think the Russians don't have minesweepers?


I'm sure they have some hull's with minesweeping gear.
Can they leave port and actually sweep mines ?



:
:
: :
: :
: : [Shift some more...]
: :
: : :
: : :
: : : No, it won't be news to either Japan or Korea. They can read maps,
: : : you see...
: : :
: : :
: : :I'm not the one who keeps discounting them..
: : :
: :
: : Gee, neither am I. You are, however, the one that is unable to read
: : either a Usenet article, a map, or anything written on naval tactics.
: :
: : And the change from shifting the goalposts to outright lying was a
: : nice change on your part.
: :
: :I guess since you can't win you resort to name calling. Oh well
: :
:
: If you don't like people pointing out you're shifting your claims all
: over the place and lying, stop shifting your claims all over the place
: and stop lying.
:
:I see you like to use old tactic of calling someone a liar when they
:refuse to accept your claims and the all mighty truth.
:

I'm not responsible for your myopia. I'm also not responsible for
your lack of veracity. I'm REALLY not responsible for your lack of
intellectual integrity.

I called you a liar because you lied.

Just what did I 'discount', you lying little sack of turds?

Keep shifting and lying. I'll keep calling you a shifty liar.

It only seems appropriate...

I can see why so many folks ignore you around here Fred.

tankfixer wrote:

:In article ,
says...
: tankfixer wrote:
:
: :In article ,
: says...
: : tankfixer wrote:
: :
: : :In article ,
: : says...
: : : tankfixer wrote:
: : :
: : : :In article ,
: : : says...
: : : : tankfixer wrote:
: : : :
: : : : :In article ,
: : : : says...
: : : : :
: : : : : You do realize that the Sea of Okhotsk is surrounded by RUSSIAN land,
: : : : : right? No sane US admiral would take a force up there during active
: : : : : hostilities.
: : : : :
: : : : :You don't have to enter it. just deny a couple of exit's and Vladivostok
: : : : :is worthless.
: : : : :
: : : :
: : : : And positioning to deny those exits leaves you in a fixed position and
: : : : vulnerable to huge land-based air assets.
: : : :
: : : :Maybe in the old days it did, but now ?
: : : :
: : :
: : : Making up more ignorance while you scurry about trying to move the
: : : goalposts?
: : :
: : :
: : :What huge fleet of aircraft do the Russians operate nowdays ?
: : :
: :
: : There are (at least) 4 aviation regiments attached directly to the
: : Russian Pacific Fleet.
: :
: : Or are you one of those silly people who think all the hardware just
: : magically evaporated with the fall of the Soviet Union?
: :
: idn't evaporate, it just corroded away.
: :
:
: Not so much. You know airplanes are made out of aluminum, right?
:
:Yes, which is why i used the word "corroded" instead of "rusted".
:
:They also contain significant amounts of magnisium, steel and even a
:good bit of copper.
:

And you presumably think that Russians are too stupid to maintain
their military assets or what?

:
:
: One more time. There are (at least) 4 aviation regiments attached
: directly to the Russian Pacific Fleet.
:
:With an assigned operational strength of what ?
:25 aircraft ?
:

Pull some more numbers out of your ass. Perhaps you'll get closer to
reality.

You think submarines have AA systems on them, do you? Or are you back
to assuming a surface blocking force? Or are you whirling back to
mines?

:
:
: :
: :
: : :
: : :
: : : :
: : : :And why would I be on the surface in the first place ?
: : : :
: : :
: : : Who said you were? Why do you think that makes a difference? Do you
: : : stupidly believe that submarines are invulnerable to aircraft?
: : :
: : : [Keep moving those goalposts.]
: : :
: : :
: : :They have to find em first..
: : :
: :
: : When you're sitting in one place to block a choke point that gets a
: : lot easier to do. It pretty well limits the volume of ocean you can
: : be sitting in, which makes finding you (or sanitizing that volume of
: : ocean) much easier.
: :
: : :
: : : : : : I'm not sure precisely what you have in mind, but the size of Russia's
: : : : : : Navy has nothing to do with it. You're close enough inshore so that
: : : : : : airplanes will blow your ass off if you try to sit in there.
: : : : : :
: : : : : :
: : : : : :Yes, that is the problem the Russian face in trying to get out of
: : : : : :Vladivostok....
: : : : : :
: : : : :
: : : : : Except most of it is RUSSIAN land...
: : : : :
: : : : :That will be news to Japan and Korea(north and south)
: : : : :
: : : :
: : : : Might I suggest you look up the meaning of 'most' and realize that it
: : : : doesn't equate to 'all'?
: : : :
: : : :"most" of that land is just a hinderance to navigation.
: : : :Even the Russian bits.
: : : :
: : : :The important parts are NOT Russian.
: : : :
: : :
: : : The important parts to whom and for what?
: : :
: : :The parts the Russians would have to pass by
: : :
: :
: : Check a map. Look north.
: :
: :Nice place for a some mines....
: :
:
: So we see it go from a surface force to subs to mines. Nothing like
: shifting those claims, is there?
:
:Actually you assumed it would be surface forces my friend. I never
:stated they would be.
:

So they're going to block them by magic?

:
:If you can't deal with a varied threat perhaps you might stick to
:something safe like checkers.
:

I'd suggest that checkers is too intellectually demanding for you.

:
:
: You think the Russians don't have minesweepers?
:
:
:I'm sure they have some hull's with minesweeping gear.
:Can they leave port and actually sweep mines ?
:

Better than the few we have probably can, even if you assume that we
have the minelayers to try to close the place off and that they just
let us.

:
:
: :
: :
: : :
: : :
: : : [Shift some more...]
: : :
: : : :
: : : :
: : : : No, it won't be news to either Japan or Korea. They can read maps,
: : : : you see...
: : : :
: : : :
: : : :I'm not the one who keeps discounting them..
: : : :
: : :
: : : Gee, neither am I. You are, however, the one that is unable to read
: : : either a Usenet article, a map, or anything written on naval tactics.
: : :
: : : And the change from shifting the goalposts to outright lying was a
: : : nice change on your part.
: : :
: : :I guess since you can't win you resort to name calling. Oh well
: : :
: :
: : If you don't like people pointing out you're shifting your claims all
: : over the place and lying, stop shifting your claims all over the place
: : and stop lying.
: :
: :I see you like to use old tactic of calling someone a liar when they
: :refuse to accept your claims and the all mighty truth.
: :
:
: I'm not responsible for your myopia. I'm also not responsible for
: your lack of veracity. I'm REALLY not responsible for your lack of
: intellectual integrity.
:
: I called you a liar because you lied.
:
: Just what did I 'discount', you lying little sack of turds?
:
: Keep shifting and lying. I'll keep calling you a shifty liar.
:
: It only seems appropriate...
:
:I can see why so many folks ignore you around here Fred.
:

Only the idiots, Tanky. It's because they don't like having their
lies, idiocy, and squirming pointed out.

Is any of this sounding familiar to you?


--
"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the
soul with evil."
-- Socrates

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 01:19:44 -0700, Fred J. McCall
wrote:

snipped for brevity because I appreciate not having to read 1000
lines of repeat to get one line of comment

: Not so much. You know airplanes are made out of aluminum, right?
:
:Yes, which is why i used the word "corroded" instead of "rusted".
:
:They also contain significant amounts of magnisium, steel and even a
:good bit of copper.
:
And you presumably think that Russians are too stupid to maintain
their military assets or what?

It's not a question of stupidity but money. For three lustrums former
Soviet assets have been rotting away. Now they've got the money (and
the will at the top) to start a "resurgence" of sorts. Time will tell
how long the money and the will last.

It's also worth noting that during the Soviet era readiness rates were
not all that "red hot" even in some elite units. That's one reason
why they always built fairly simply and in large quantities. I don't
know if this will change or not.

: One more time. There are (at least) 4 aviation regiments attached
: directly to the Russian Pacific Fleet.
:
:With an assigned operational strength of what ?
:25 aircraft ?
:
Pull some more numbers out of your ass. Perhaps you'll get closer to
reality.

Why don't you tell us about internal organization of those regiments?

: You think the Russians don't have minesweepers?
:
:I'm sure they have some hull's with minesweeping gear.
:Can they leave port and actually sweep mines ?
:
Better than the few we have probably can, even if you assume that we
have the minelayers to try to close the place off and that they just
let us.

SSNs make great minelayers. So do some long range aircraft (but with
some pretty obvious limitations).

:I can see why so many folks ignore you around here Fred.
:
Only the idiots, Tanky. It's because they don't like having their
lies, idiocy, and squirming pointed out.

I always thought it was a sign of natural intelligence when people
snipped the needless redundancies from their posts.

Clearly the Russian Republic under Putin aspires to a greater world
role, not unlike the Tsars of old. Can they do it? They've got the
money and it looks like they've got the will. Putin is the Collosus
of Russian politics (at least for now) and system is clearly dancing
to his tune. But politicians come and go (even dictators). Building
a navy is very different from building an army or airforce. They
certainly CAN do it; whether or not there is a national (as opposed to
a person) long term agenda to do it is an open question.

On Dec 10, 7:07 am, Bill Kambic wrote:
On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 01:19:44 -0700, Fred J. McCall

wrote:

snipped for brevity because I appreciate not having to read 1000
lines of repeat to get one line of comment

: Not so much. You know airplanes are made out of aluminum, right?
:
:Yes, which is why i used the word "corroded" instead of "rusted".
:
:They also contain significant amounts of magnisium, steel and even a
:good bit of copper.
:
And you presumably think that Russians are too stupid to maintain
their military assets or what?

It's not a question of stupidity but money. For three lustrums former
Soviet assets have been rotting away. Now they've got the money (and
the will at the top) to start a "resurgence" of sorts. Time will tell
how long the money and the will last.

It's also worth noting that during the Soviet era readiness rates were
not all that "red hot" even in some elite units. That's one reason
why they always built fairly simply and in large quantities. I don't
know if this will change or not.

: One more time. There are (at least) 4 aviation regiments attached
: directly to the Russian Pacific Fleet.
:
:With an assigned operational strength of what ?
:25 aircraft ?
:
Pull some more numbers out of your ass. Perhaps you'll get closer to
reality.

Why don't you tell us about internal organization of those regiments?

: You think the Russians don't have minesweepers?
:
:I'm sure they have some hull's with minesweeping gear.
:Can they leave port and actually sweep mines ?
:
Better than the few we have probably can, even if you assume that we
have the minelayers to try to close the place off and that they just
let us.

SSNs make great minelayers. So do some long range aircraft (but with
some pretty obvious limitations).

:I can see why so many folks ignore you around here Fred.
:
Only the idiots, Tanky. It's because they don't like having their
lies, idiocy, and squirming pointed out.

I always thought it was a sign of natural intelligence when people
snipped the needless redundancies from their posts.

Clearly the Russian Republic under Putin aspires to a greater world
role, not unlike the Tsars of old. Can they do it? They've got the
money and it looks like they've got the will. Putin is the Collosus
of Russian politics (at least for now) and system is clearly dancing
to his tune. But politicians come and go (even dictators). Building
a navy is very different from building an army or airforce. They
certainly CAN do it; whether or not there is a national (as opposed to
a person) long term agenda to do it is an open question.

A warmer Arctic with proven oil reserves of great quantity could be a
major force in reshaping the Russia we know now. They have had 70
years of experience operating the Northern Sea Route and operations in
the cold Arctic.

Bill Kambic wrote:
On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 01:19:44 -0700, Fred J. McCall
[snip]

And you presumably think that Russians are too stupid to maintain
their military assets or what?

It's not a question of stupidity but money. For three lustrums former
Soviet assets have been rotting away. Now they've got the money (and
the will at the top) to start a "resurgence" of sorts. Time will tell
how long the money and the will last.

It's also worth noting that during the Soviet era readiness rates were
not all that "red hot" even in some elite units. That's one reason
why they always built fairly simply and in large quantities. I don't
know if this will change or not.

One big difference between building new and maintenance is the rank of
the person making the decision.

Build new - politician or chief of staff.
Repair - private or able seaman.

This is simply because only the private know that his rifle needs
repairing. Where half the rifles in the regiment are faulty the
private has proof the sergeant is not going to chase him, so it is
easier to keep quiet. Nasty things happen to "trouble makers"
who rock the boat with bad news. The repair order probably
needs the CO's signature so it will take months to arrive and the
CO may have to ask district HQ for more spares.

Andrew Swallow