What constitutes a POH? New owner needs advice. (long)

cjcampbell wrote:



STCs are part of the airplane's type certificate. You have to keep them
in the plane,

Wrong, you need not keep any STC 337 in the plane. There may be a POH
supplement that must be kept in the plane, most commonly found with a
new IFR GPS install.


along with any manuals pertaining to the new equipment --
those become part of the operating handbook.

The manual need not be in the airplane unless the STC says it has to be
there. It may be a good idea, but not required.

On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 21:50:19 -0600, Newps wrote:

Wrong, you need not keep any STC 337 in the plane. There may be a POH
supplement that must be kept in the plane, most commonly found with a
new IFR GPS install.

Since this is Usenet, just to be nit-picky, isn't there some kind of
requirement for paperwork to be on board the a/c, under certain conditions,
if the STC is for a ferry fuel tank?


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 21:50:19 -0600, Newps wrote:


Wrong, you need not keep any STC 337 in the plane. There may be a POH
supplement that must be kept in the plane, most commonly found with a
new IFR GPS install.


Since this is Usenet, just to be nit-picky, isn't there some kind of
requirement for paperwork to be on board the a/c, under certain conditions,
if the STC is for a ferry fuel tank?

Are ferry tanks STC'd or are they installed with a one time field
approval? Kind of like a ferry permit I was thinking.

"cjcampbell" wrote in message
oups.com...

RH wrote:

1) I have the original Aircraft Flight Manual. Is this the POH? It
has the aircraft serial number on it. It is only three pages long. Is
that all there is to it???

Yes. Many older aircraft do not even have that. They were certified
before a POH was required.

Most of the earlier bo's I've seen have an owner's manual about the size of
a Gideon bible. I'm not sure if reprints are available, but I'd bet one of
the many aviation manual reprint shops would have one. It is not likely to
be cheap.




2) I have all the W&B data going back to day one. Do I have to keep
all of that in the plane, or just the most recent W&B?

You do not have to keep superceded material in the plane and you
probably shouldn't. Others will argue all day long about whether you
need to keep the most recent W&B in the plane. Obviously, any FAA
inspector is likely to have his own opinion on it. I would keep it in
the plane.

I agree. I would keep a copy of the current W/B in the aircraft. The
question that was originally asked is one of "need", not "good idea".




3) STC's - it has a 3 blade Hartzell, Cleveland Brakes, D'Shannon
windshield - - do I need to keep these in the plane?

STCs are part of the airplane's type certificate. You have to keep them
in the plane, along with any manuals pertaining to the new equipment --
those become part of the operating handbook.

That is not true. You do not have to have a copy of the type certificate
nor any STC paperwork in the aircraft unless specifically so stated in the
STC itself.



Jim

RST Engineering wrote:
"cjcampbell" wrote in message
oups.com...

RH wrote:

1) I have the original Aircraft Flight Manual. Is this the POH? It
has the aircraft serial number on it. It is only three pages long. Is
that all there is to it???

Yes. Many older aircraft do not even have that. They were certified
before a POH was required.


Most of the earlier bo's I've seen have an owner's manual about the size of
a Gideon bible. I'm not sure if reprints are available, but I'd bet one of
the many aviation manual reprint shops would have one. It is not likely to
be cheap.

You can find them on ebay for about $30-$50.

On Mon, 17 Jul 2006 08:03:23 -0600, Newps wrote:



Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 21:50:19 -0600, Newps wrote:


Wrong, you need not keep any STC 337 in the plane. There may be a POH
supplement that must be kept in the plane, most commonly found with a
new IFR GPS install.


Since this is Usenet, just to be nit-picky, isn't there some kind of
requirement for paperwork to be on board the a/c, under certain conditions,
if the STC is for a ferry fuel tank?

Are ferry tanks STC'd or are they installed with a one time field
approval? Kind of like a ferry permit I was thinking.

Yes, you're probably correct. I just seem to be thinking that there is
something connected with the so-called "War on Drugs" that prompted
paperwork to be on board (when it was not previously required) and that had
to do with fuel.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Newps wrote:


cjcampbell wrote:



STCs are part of the airplane's type certificate. You have to keep them
in the plane,

Wrong, you need not keep any STC 337 in the plane. There may be a POH
supplement that must be kept in the plane, most commonly found with a
new IFR GPS install.


With the exception of in-cabin fuel tanks.

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
m...
Newps wrote:


cjcampbell wrote:



STCs are part of the airplane's type certificate. You have to keep them
in the plane,

Wrong, you need not keep any STC 337 in the plane. There may be a POH
supplement that must be kept in the plane, most commonly found with a new
IFR GPS install.

With the exception of in-cabin fuel tanks.


What you DO need to keep in the cabin is any POH supplement that comes with
an STC'd part.

Karl

karl gruber wrote:

What you DO need to keep in the cabin is any POH supplement that comes with
an STC'd part.

You keep in the cockpit whatever the STC says you have to. If it
says you have to put a placard in, you put a placard in. If it says
carry a supplement, you carry a supplement. It's not hard, follow
the instructions.

Contrary to what's been written here, the POH is required
to be carried for the Beech S-35.

Check TCDS 3A15, S-35, Required Equipment item 403.

Under 403, items p and al are listed. al is the new, small
size GAMA format POH which came out in about 1987.

Some factory installed supplements are listed in the TCDS,
too, and would be required to be in the POH. Examples:
Tip tanks, autopilots, magic hands, etc.

The old 8.5x11" POH is supersceded by the newer one. But
lookout: Flight manual supplements for equipment like autopilots,
etc, IFR 430s, fuel totalizers, bigger engines, auto fuel STC etc
--equipment that has been added--
may be included in that binder. You will need to carry
that original binder for these supplements or copy them into the
smaller format (making them basically unreadable).

The new POH has a page for logging latest weight and balance.

It's not easy to decipher in the TCDS but there is not the
slightest doubt that it's required.

If there isn't one, it can be purchased from Beech Rapid and
customized for your airplane.

It's a hell of an airplane by the way. Get a good prepurchase.

Bill Hale BPPP instructor A&PIA



RH wrote:
Hi everyone!

L O N G time lurker, infrequent poster here. I have a question about
what must legally be carried in the airplane for the pilot operating
handbook.

But first, let me share with you a little bit of my experience buying
an airplane...You may remember a few months ago I was looking at a
Beech Sierra or Piper Comanche. I did find a nice Beech Sierra, and
made an offer contingent on a pre-buy, but I never heard back from the
owner, other than "I'm going on vacation and will call you in two
weeks". Subsequent phone calls & emails from me went unanswered. In
the meantime, I found a nice Comanche 180, but the seller, an elderly
gentleman, had a really high asking price that he was absolutely firm
on. I felt like I could not risk overpaying that much, especially in
this market. So I ended up finding another sweet Comanche 180, owned
by a fellow in his 70's. I made an offer that was within 95% of his
asking price, but he seemed so offended that we could not agree on
anything from that point forward. After all the research, analysis,
worry and angst that goes into deciding on a particlar make & model, I
had no idea that actually *buying* the plane would be this difficult!
I was beginning to wonder if it was me!

So then I find myself at the AOPA fly in. My wife & I are pushing our
son around in the stroller, when she spots a real sweet looking Bonanza
for sale. I'm thinking , yeah - dream on, who wouldnt want a Bonanza?
The purchase price might be manageable, but everyone knows how
expensive those things are to maintain. Right? And what about that
W&B issue? And the V tail? But we look a little closer. It's a '65 S
model, and the cabin seems positively huge compared to the Comanche's
we had been considering. It actually has six seats too. And there is
something "substantial" looking about the Bonanza, they way it sits up
on its tall gear.

So we join the ABS. Get out the actual W&B data and start running some
real word scenarios, calculating various take off and landing CG's.
It's something to be mindful of, but not that big of a deal, really.
We were always able to come up with loading arrangements that kept the
CG within limits.

The information from ABS satisfied many concerns. The issues with the
V tail seem to have been resolved with the various AD's. The issue of
high parts prices is valid, but the reality is you rarely need to buy
airframe parts, you are more liklely in need of engine & accessory type
parts (mags, vacuum pumps, plugs, etc), and those are all the same
price whether you fly a Beech or a Piper.

To make a long story short, after a very detailed prebuy and some
negotiation, we are now the proud owners of N5848K!!! Our first plane.
The discrepancies noted on the prebuy have now been fixed, and I'm
scheduled to do my checkout tomorrow with a high time Bonanza
instructor. I cant wait!!

In the meantime, and this brings me back to the original subject of
this post, I have gathered up all of the aircraft logs and records and
have them spread out on the kitchen table. The logs are complete but
they are not in any real order whatsoever. They were just kept in a
large duffel bag. I told my wife this scattered mess of paper probably
represents 10-15% of the value of the plane, so we'll need to get them
organized and archived for safekeeping. But for now, I want to make
sure the documentation in the aircraft is correct. Here are my
questions:

1) I have the original Aircraft Flight Manual. Is this the POH? It
has the aircraft serial number on it. It is only three pages long. Is
that all there is to it???
2) I have all the W&B data going back to day one. Do I have to keep
all of that in the plane, or just the most recent W&B?
3) STC's - it has a 3 blade Hartzell, Cleveland Brakes, D'Shannon
windshield - - do I need to keep these in the plane?
4) 337's - It has had damage history when it ran off a runway in 1980,
and a fuel truck backed into it in 1998. Do I have to keep the 337's
in the plane?

Thanks for any input you may have.

Richard