FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition

On Wednesday, December 12, 2012 9:31:38 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Wednesday, December 12, 2012 5:40:04 AM UTC-8, Evan Ludeman wrote:

On Tuesday, December 11, 2012 8:28:21 PM UTC-5, wrote:



On Monday, December 10, 2012 3:05:17 PM UTC-8, John Carlyle wrote:







On Monday, December 10, 2012 5:20:31 PM UTC-5, wrote:















The RC current proposal for Mifflin 2013 includes AT which is known to increase gaggles. If they succeed should Mifflin pilots be asked if they want to fly in the first AT two handicap division Sports Class Nationals?































Sean Franke (HA)































Hank Nixon already gave a "heads up" on this possibility on Nov 7 in this forum. Knowing Hank, I expect that if the CC is approved by the SSA BOD, he'll be making even more announcements. So you don't have to worry about it, Sean.































-John















John, it's good to hear concerns and suggestions. Based on what I hear from you and others, the Sports Class should remain intact without rule changes. If AT is introduced so will gaggles. There are some like you who don't care to fly in a class with gaggles.















Evan stated some advantages and merits of MAT such as less work and more BBQ's. If the Sports Class added AT there would be fewer MAT's.















Guy posted "The trick is to preserve the spirit and the simplicity of the FAI rules, but at the same time make them a bit more palatable to US pilots."















What makes sense to preserve Sports Class as an all inclusive handicap class under current US rules. In ADDITION ADD US Club Class at the same venue under FAI rules. This way no one goes home and 99% are happy. Fly in the class you prefer. Club Class can, if necessary, have a separate start area and be tasked differently than Sports Class reducing glider traffic. Those who don't care for MAT (I'm one)aren't forced to fly it. Also, those who want something different that US rules have a place to fly. The US Club Class should preserve FAI spirit but make compatible with US pilots. Variations might include handicap acceptance and unit format.















Sean Franke (HA)







Using the entry lists/gliders from recent Sports Nats as a baseline, this proposal doesn't work. Surely that's obvious.







T8



Sorry, it's not obvious. Please explain.



Sean Franke (HA)

Taking 2012 Sports as an example... there were 27 moderns (by anyone's definition), 4 gray area ships (LS-6, V1, ASW-20B/C), 11 "Argentina Definition" FAI Club Class gliders and 2 low performance. 15 gliders is marginal for a Nationals class. 11 is not marginal, it's a non-starter. RC definition yields 17 "Club Class" gliders which still isn't great and now has all of the tasking problems that you object to.

If you do a similar analysis on 2009, 10 and 11 Sports Nats, the numbers are even worse.

The best attended Club Class (Argentina Definition) in the US so far was Cordele (2009 maybe?) with 17 ships. Your races at Moriarity were viable only because you let in gray area ships.

This conversation would, I think, go a whole lot differently if there was any evidence there was a chance of getting 25+ club class (by any definition) gliders on the Nationals grid. So far, there isn't.

T8

On the other hand Evan, the Sports Class Nationals at Parowan was being held just a week after the Super Regional in Moriarty, and attracted Club Class pilots that might otherwise had been at Moriarty.

Mike


On Wednesday, December 12, 2012 9:08:32 AM UTC-7, Evan Ludeman wrote:
On Wednesday, December 12, 2012 9:31:38 AM UTC-5, wrote:

On Wednesday, December 12, 2012 5:40:04 AM UTC-8, Evan Ludeman wrote:



On Tuesday, December 11, 2012 8:28:21 PM UTC-5, wrote:







On Monday, December 10, 2012 3:05:17 PM UTC-8, John Carlyle wrote:















On Monday, December 10, 2012 5:20:31 PM UTC-5, wrote:































The RC current proposal for Mifflin 2013 includes AT which is known to increase gaggles. If they succeed should Mifflin pilots be asked if they want to fly in the first AT two handicap division Sports Class Nationals?































































Sean Franke (HA)































































Hank Nixon already gave a "heads up" on this possibility on Nov 7 in this forum. Knowing Hank, I expect that if the CC is approved by the SSA BOD, he'll be making even more announcements. So you don't have to worry about it, Sean.































































-John































John, it's good to hear concerns and suggestions. Based on what I hear from you and others, the Sports Class should remain intact without rule changes. If AT is introduced so will gaggles. There are some like you who don't care to fly in a class with gaggles.































Evan stated some advantages and merits of MAT such as less work and more BBQ's. If the Sports Class added AT there would be fewer MAT's.































Guy posted "The trick is to preserve the spirit and the simplicity of the FAI rules, but at the same time make them a bit more palatable to US pilots."































What makes sense to preserve Sports Class as an all inclusive handicap class under current US rules. In ADDITION ADD US Club Class at the same venue under FAI rules. This way no one goes home and 99% are happy. Fly in the class you prefer. Club Class can, if necessary, have a separate start area and be tasked differently than Sports Class reducing glider traffic.. Those who don't care for MAT (I'm one)aren't forced to fly it. Also, those who want something different that US rules have a place to fly. The US Club Class should preserve FAI spirit but make compatible with US pilots. Variations might include handicap acceptance and unit format.































Sean Franke (HA)















Using the entry lists/gliders from recent Sports Nats as a baseline, this proposal doesn't work. Surely that's obvious.















T8







Sorry, it's not obvious. Please explain.







Sean Franke (HA)



Taking 2012 Sports as an example... there were 27 moderns (by anyone's definition), 4 gray area ships (LS-6, V1, ASW-20B/C), 11 "Argentina Definition" FAI Club Class gliders and 2 low performance. 15 gliders is marginal for a Nationals class. 11 is not marginal, it's a non-starter. RC definition yields 17 "Club Class" gliders which still isn't great and now has all of the tasking problems that you object to.



If you do a similar analysis on 2009, 10 and 11 Sports Nats, the numbers are even worse.



The best attended Club Class (Argentina Definition) in the US so far was Cordele (2009 maybe?) with 17 ships. Your races at Moriarity were viable only because you let in gray area ships.



This conversation would, I think, go a whole lot differently if there was any evidence there was a chance of getting 25+ club class (by any definition) gliders on the Nationals grid. So far, there isn't.



T8

On Wednesday, December 12, 2012 11:30:32 AM UTC-5, Mike C wrote:
On the other hand Evan, the Sports Class Nationals at Parowan was being held just a week after the Super Regional in Moriarty, and attracted Club Class pilots that might otherwise had been at Moriarty.


Be sure to look at Sports Nats from 2009 (Harris Hill) and 2011 (Chilhowee) too -- those contests may better reflect the grid we are likely to get at Mifflin.

FWIW: I support that which helps build the sport. If we can build a viable club class that is net positive for the sport, I'm all for it. So far, I'm simply skeptical. If I seem opposed, that's probably because I take exception to the methods being employed here and all the BS being hurled publicly at the RC.

Evan Ludeman / T8

BS? Ok, so you have said this about us...allow me a brief reply.

46 people clearly feel they are not being represented by the RC per the rule they have offered as the new "US Club Class." That's why they have signed the petition. That's why we started it. No other path was open. All the doors were locked. It was clearly stated offline that FAI rules is a NON STARTER. Ok...

So we decided to go another route. And have been attacked ever since by the establishment players. Meanwhile, more pilots will sign the petition. Many others are very supportive but have choose not to sign, yet. How could this be?

You claim our petition and defense of our beliefs on this forum is a bad tactic? Having a petition that asks a clear question about FAI rules is BS? US pilots publicly voicing their wishes, their opinions about this specific topic is a bad thing? Really? Should we have simply relied on the RC poll and poll data? Is that, not, BS? Obviously the poll and its "analysis" resulted in the US club class rule? Meanwhile almost every major player in the US who owns a club ship is LOUDLY supporting an FAI Club Class. How can their be such a massive deviation from these clear voices in the polling data? Where is the polling data by the way? Clearly the Poll method leaves "something to be desired...!" We prefer direct, simple questions if you have not noticed. (I'll focus more on the poll method flaws soon.)

I wish to suggest that the US soaring environment is not the private utopia for the RC to mold into their private vision and "control." We should not in competition with the rest of the world on rules leadership. Perhaps the RC needs some new members? Some new viewpoints? They have succeeded in completely isolating all US pilots from the rest of the competitive soaring world. US pilots of any aspiration have no choice then to play a different game. The cold fact here js that MANY within the US want a choice to fly under pure, UNMOLESTED FAI in at least one US class!

I personally agree with many US rules. But that does not mean that a choice should not be available. ESPECIALLY WHEN SUCH A LARGE NUMBER OF PRESTIGIOUS US PILOTS HAVE PUBLICLY STATED THIER DESIRE FOR A SSA SANCTIONED US FAI CLASS (AND CLEARLY PROVEN THE "POLL" IS DEEPLY FLAWED). This should not be a dictatorship. Listening to the people should be primary. We are only talking about one small meager class here. This is not blasphemy here! Or is it?

In response to this request we hear comments like "non-starter..." all to often. Many are growing increasingly frustrated as they follow the conversation here. Many from past debates on this topic a reinvigorated. I see this as long term positive. You probably won't understand.

How is having one US class which is in alignment with THE REST OF THE WORLD SO BAD AGAIN?

We are speaking pure facts here on this side of the argument. Nothing we have said is out if hand. This is simply an open, specific petition on FAI club class vs what the RC has proposed via their poll and their "wisdom...".. And it's causing great panic in my opinion? Why?

Why not simply listen to your fellow pilots? You know, the ones with club ships? What is the underlying motivation of intentionally avoiding FAI rules at any cost?

Why is it impossible for the US RC to allow a class which they rest of the world uses every day? How is that a problem? It's mind boggling.

None of the RC has a club class glider. AND we suggest a solution that allows ANY AND ALL pilots with FAI club ships to have THE CHOICE to fly in either format.

Keep the sports class AS IS. Everyone is happy. Little changes for those who hate this idea or have bought into the propaganda that FAI contest equals certain land out and high risk. Club class gets its class and this conversation goes away!

And don't worry about us Evan, we will manage our attendance just fine. When SSA sanctioned FAI US Club gets approved many will make a point to fly it IN ADDITION to the many who have signed the petition. I promise.

Perhaps this is the fear I am smelling...allowing us to succeed with an FAI class? Hmmmm?

Sean
F2

Sports class "as is" with club class means a huge hole out of the
middle, and the sparrowhawk competing with no other gliders between it
and an ASW27. That just doesn't work. The sparrowhawk will go home and
not come back. Forget about "sports class as is plus club class" until
we have enough club eligible gliders showing up to populate both.

There is one petition that counts -- the one where people show up at a
contest with a glider and a check. We haven't had 50 pilots at sports
nationals in club gliders ever. First you show up and race, then we
talk about how to tweak the rules.

The Mifflin experiment gives about 95% of what you wanted -- limited
handicap range allowing more gaggle flying and assigned tasks / long
MATs. If that works, attracts 25+ gliders, and the SRA meeting at
Mifflin (I can't wait for that one) indicates strong support for
moving further in the direction of FAI rules. we can keep going. If
you and the 50 signatories stay home, the game is up.

If full-on FAI rules are in fact so immensely attractive, and people
really are staying home from Mifflin because they can't stand the
thought of a beat up 20B or sparrowhawk sharing the grid with them,
and they're dying to reprogram their instruments to kilometers to
practice for the worlds, then a FAI rules regional will attract 50
pilots and prove the concept. Remember, pilots not on the seeding list
who have never flown contests cannot fly a nationals, so you can't
talk about people who just hate our rules so much and love FAI rules
that they don't fly contests at all.

Last year, artificial horizons. This year, FAI rules, in all their
glory. I can't wait for next year.

John Cochrane

On Wednesday, December 12, 2012 2:58:02 PM UTC-5, Sean F (F2) wrote:
None of the RC has a club class glider.

Though maybe not a major player, one RC member has been active in Sports with a conforming Club glider. I owned and flew a conforming Club glider in the last Sports nationals I flew and currently own 2 Club class gliders. I'm not quite as disconnected as you might imply. Just a minor correction to your information.
So far, I don't think I have attacked anyone, though we certainly have had a spirited exchange.
UH

"Sports class "as is" with club class means a huge hole out of the middle.."

:-)

So what?

Other than "the hole" (which you claim will occur and I doubt), nothing changes from last years 2012 Sports Class Nationals where ASG29's & ASH25's happily competed (in mass) with 135's and PW5's

Example: http://www.ssa.org/members/contestre...lass+Nationals

This was a great event with the normal Sports Class range, no? Everyone had a great time just as they have been having for years and years in US Sports Class and under its tasking philosophy. The US Sports class, unique in all the world, is an all inclusive class which provides competition for the full range of ALL US racing gliders. Why change this if the tasking is not going to change? Why would a hole in handicap range matter? The Club Class folks want a true CLUB CLASS. Not a Sports Class Low class.

REMEMBER...the US Rules "evangelists" (RC) are pretty certain (maybe polling data?) that many do not want to fly FAI (land outs, safety, gaggles, etc....). So the hole you claim will form will be filled in with pilots who choose US Rules Sports Class but fly FAI Club gliders.

The FAI Club Class guys either show up in big numbers and have a ball or nothing changes and we continue to fly in Sports as normal.

Everyone wins. Everyone is happy. Everyone has a choice. Nobody is left home...

Although I suspect that the "big boys" in sports class (you know, Ventus 2's, etc) want to cut the bottom off so they can have more challenging tasks themselves. The Club Class FAI crowd understands this! But, that is another problem that should not impact or concern club class pilots who have been asking FOR YEARS for a US CLUB CLASS. We already have an established worldwide successful class. We just want to fly it, unmolested and undiluted by utopian visionaries.

Sean
F2

"Beat up 20B"

*Beat*up*?!?

Oh, the outrage!!

-T8 (ASW-20B) (B stands for "Best")

(j/k)

On Wednesday, December 12, 2012 12:21:26 PM UTC-8, John Cochrane wrote:
Sports class "as is" with club class means a huge hole out of the
middle, and the sparrowhawk competing with no other gliders between it
and an ASW27. That just doesn't work.

It will continue to work as it has in the past. Holes in the middle, low end or high end are irrelevant to an all inclusive Sports Class. If rules and tasking are unchanged then you will get the SAME result, regardless of sailplane mix. It has worked in the past. It will continue to work the same way in the future.

We haven't had 50 pilots at sports
nationals in club gliders ever. First you show up and race, then we
talk about how to tweak the rules.

Too many Club Class pilots feel like we have been there and done that. We were told build and fly a super regional. We did. We were told do it again.. We did. Where does it end? Current RC "Club Class" resembles NOTHING of want was built and flown in the super regionals.

The Mifflin experiment gives about 95% of what you wanted -- limited
handicap range allowing more gaggle flying and assigned tasks / long
MATs.

Stating "95% of want you wanted" is completely inaccurate. Cutting the handicap list down the middle isn't limited handicap range. It certainly doesn't make it Club Class. AT can't happen if just ONE low performance glider shows up. MAT's were EXCLUDED from the super regional. MAT's are no substitute for AT. Besides the RC label "Club Class", which obviously has no resemblance to a real Club Class, I don't think we have anything.

If that works, attracts 25+ gliders. If
you and the 50 signatories stay home, the game is up.

I predict the 50 signatories will either stay home or participate at the same level IF the current RC proposal goes into effect. It's insane to expect a different result unless you change. Do you really think those who want a genuine Club Class will market and recruit for a US rules based mass handicap contest labeled "Club Class"? Come on, let's get real.

F2 took Region 6 from 10 pilots to 40 through his marketing efforts. He was excited and motivated. Do you really think he will do the same for the RC's "Club Class"? What about others including me? What about those already staying home?


If full-on FAI rules are in fact so immensely attractive, and people
really are staying home from Mifflin because they can't stand the
thought of a beat up 20B or sparrowhawk sharing the grid with them,
and they're dying to reprogram their instruments to kilometers to
practice for the worlds...
John Cochrane


No one is suggesting leaving out the ASW20B or mandating kilometers. We should keep in mind Guy's post "The trick is to preserve the spirit and the simplicity of the FAI rules, but at the same time make them a bit more palatable to US pilots."

Sean Franke (HA)

On Wednesday, December 12, 2012 6:51:47 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Wednesday, December 12, 2012 12:21:26 PM UTC-8, John Cochrane wrote:

Sports class "as is" with club class means a huge hole out of the

middle, and the sparrowhawk competing with no other gliders between it

and an ASW27. That just doesn't work.



It will continue to work as it has in the past. Holes in the middle, low end or high end are irrelevant to an all inclusive Sports Class. If rules and tasking are unchanged then you will get the SAME result, regardless of sailplane mix. It has worked in the past. It will continue to work the same way in the future.



We haven't had 50 pilots at sports

nationals in club gliders ever. First you show up and race, then we

talk about how to tweak the rules.



Too many Club Class pilots feel like we have been there and done that. We were told build and fly a super regional. We did. We were told do it again. We did. Where does it end? Current RC "Club Class" resembles NOTHING of want was built and flown in the super regionals.



The Mifflin experiment gives about 95% of what you wanted -- limited

handicap range allowing more gaggle flying and assigned tasks / long

MATs.



Stating "95% of want you wanted" is completely inaccurate. Cutting the handicap list down the middle isn't limited handicap range. It certainly doesn't make it Club Class. AT can't happen if just ONE low performance glider shows up. MAT's were EXCLUDED from the super regional. MAT's are no substitute for AT. Besides the RC label "Club Class", which obviously has no resemblance to a real Club Class, I don't think we have anything.



If that works, attracts 25+ gliders. If

you and the 50 signatories stay home, the game is up.



I predict the 50 signatories will either stay home or participate at the same level IF the current RC proposal goes into effect. It's insane to expect a different result unless you change. Do you really think those who want a genuine Club Class will market and recruit for a US rules based mass handicap contest labeled "Club Class"? Come on, let's get real.



F2 took Region 6 from 10 pilots to 40 through his marketing efforts. He was excited and motivated. Do you really think he will do the same for the RC's "Club Class"? What about others including me? What about those already staying home?





If full-on FAI rules are in fact so immensely attractive, and people

really are staying home from Mifflin because they can't stand the

thought of a beat up 20B or sparrowhawk sharing the grid with them,

and they're dying to reprogram their instruments to kilometers to

practice for the worlds...

John Cochrane





No one is suggesting leaving out the ASW20B or mandating kilometers. We should keep in mind Guy's post "The trick is to preserve the spirit and the simplicity of the FAI rules, but at the same time make them a bit more palatable to US pilots."



Sean Franke (HA)

You're basically making the case that "Sports Class Sucks" due to the impossibly wide handicap spread. I don't disagree (but I don't make policy). FWIW, I've always thought that Sports at the Nats level was a waste of time for just this reason and I never go. I've flown a couple of narrow handicap range regional contests that included (at most) LS-4s to 18 m ships. That worked pretty well imo and I'd do it again.

Cutting the middle out of Sports makes the problem more glaring, but I do concede the point that it doesn't fundamentally change anything. I've known all along that 27s and better are not meaningfully competing in any way with 1-34s and Ka anythings and I have always thought it silly to put them on the same scoresheet at the *Nationals* level. Regionals are a different story. I fully support an entry level / less intimidating sports class at the regional level.

One 20B guy's take (i.e. mine): If I go to Mifflin I'll fly modern. I'll do that because I think I'll like the tasking better and I learn more chasing faster gliders.

Btw: no one likes the MAT. I've seen it called creatively and well once or twice, but more often it creates a huge luck factor (choose your own turnpoints) or turns a beautiful soaring day into an annoying rat maze of 20 and 30 miles legs (long MAT).

From what I can see of the numbers, we would need to include Venti (a/b/c), LS-6s and 20B/C in order to make an "FAI" club class viable in the Eastern US, and probably Western as well. I am merely curious: is this a deal breaker for you? What about winglets? At the beginning of the thread, the objective very clearly conveyed was "FAI rules without exception", now we appear to be having an actual exchange of ideas. I suggest we leave Mifflin 2013 out of the discussion for the moment. Looking for more common ground here.

Evan Ludeman / T8