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#12
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Mini-Winch for FES
On 3/4/20 7:38 AM, Paul Remde wrote:
Any thoughts...? I'm just dreaming about the future of gliding... Speaking as a winch instructor. One requirement for a safe winch launch is for the glider to always be in a position to make a safe landing in the event of a launch failure. Thus the launch profile must be such that by the time that you are too high to land straight ahead you have sufficient height to fly a small circuit and land back on the runway. You also want some overlap between the two options to take the stress out of decision making. If you winching into zero or low winds, a 180 deg turn and landing "downwind" is also an option. If you are winch launching a sustainer, the requirement must be for the glider to launch, release, attempt an engine start and then still be in a position to make a safe landing if the engine fails. What you do not want, is to make a habit of releasing over the downwind threshold, to low to fly a circuit back over the runway. (Yes this is accepted for aerotow. But the launch failure rate is much lower and simulated launch failure training is done in light winds which allow landing downwind.) One option is a conventional ground launch, car or winch to say 1000' AGL. Glider can then fly a circuit, start the engine on downwind and be in a position to land if the engine does not start. This would work for any sustainer technology. The ground launch is an "existing art" and you can get training and ratings for it. There are also established clubs with the means to provide the launch. Next option is the "launch to 100'". This must be done such that you can release, attempt an engine start and still be able to land straight ahead if it fails. A variation involves deploying and even starting the engine before launch, with a pylon mounted engine, like a jet, but not possible with FES. This saves some time for the engine start and reduces the risk of a start failure. These launches have been done, but you wont easily find an "approved procedure" accepted by manufacturers and authorities etc. Last comment, is do not assume that FES cannot suffer a launch failure. They have safety control systems and all it would take is one contact breaker "trip" to spoil your day. Also remember that any battery energy you use to get from 100' to "start of soaring" will not be available for a retrieve later in the day. But yes, this could be the future of gliding ... Ian |
#13
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Mini-Winch for FES
On Wednesday, March 4, 2020 at 10:40:53 AM UTC-5, kinsell wrote:
Agree with other posters, not sure how much you'd save in terms of money/effort/time with a mini winch vs a regular one. Speaking of that, what ever happened to the great electric winch project up at Bend OR that set the internet on fire not so long ago? There was a paper given at the last SSA convention by Bill Daniels about his electric winch development - at least it was on the roster. I couldn't make it to the convention; does anyone know if this talk was recorded and will be made available? Uli 'AS' |
#14
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Mini-Winch for FES
How about taking the running gear from a salvaged Tesla or similar? A
quick look found several in the $10K range and I'm sure you could find something for less.Â* Also, simple research (looking at one website) says that the Tesla's battery provides around 400 VDC which is fed to an inverter to provide the AC voltage to run the motor(s).Â* Surely someone could put together a battery bank (assuming the car's batteries are not functional) or even have a 480 V 3-phase service installed to run the motors. Now, we just need someone to build the hardware to connect the motor(s) to the drum. Or buy a ready-made winch. On 3/4/2020 12:21 PM, ian wrote: On 3/4/20 7:38 AM, Paul Remde wrote: Any thoughts...?Â* I'm just dreaming about the future of gliding... Speaking as a winch instructor. One requirement for a safe winch launch is for the glider to always be in a position to make a safe landing in the event of a launch failure. Thus the launch profile must be such that by the time that you are too high to land straight ahead you have sufficient height to fly a small circuit and land back on the runway. You also want some overlap between the two options to take the stress out of decision making. If you winching into zero or low winds, a 180 deg turn and landing "downwind" is also an option. If you are winch launching a sustainer, the requirement must be for the glider to launch, release, attempt an engine start and then still be in a position to make a safe landing if the engine fails. What you do not want, is to make a habit of releasing over the downwind threshold, to low to fly a circuit back over the runway. (Yes this is accepted for aerotow. But the launch failure rate is much lower and simulated launch failure training is done in light winds which allow landing downwind.) One option is a conventional ground launch, car or winch to say 1000' AGL. Glider can then fly a circuit, start the engine on downwind and be in a position to land if the engine does not start. This would work for any sustainer technology. The ground launch is an "existing art" and you can get training and ratings for it. There are also established clubs with the means to provide the launch. Next option is the "launch to 100'". This must be done such that you can release, attempt an engine start and still be able to land straight ahead if it fails. A variation involves deploying and even starting the engine before launch, with a pylon mounted engine, like a jet, but not possible with FES. This saves some time for the engine start and reduces the risk of a start failure. These launches have been done, but you wont easily find an "approved procedure" accepted by manufacturers and authorities etc. Last comment, is do not assume that FES cannot suffer a launch failure. They have safety control systems and all it would take is one contact breaker "trip" to spoil your day. Also remember that any battery energy you use to get from 100' to "start of soaring" will not be available for a retrieve later in the day. But yes, this could be the future of gliding ... Ian -- Dan, 5J |
#15
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Mini-Winch for FES
On Wednesday, March 4, 2020 at 2:39:29 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
How about taking the running gear from a salvaged Tesla or similar? A quick look found several in the $10K range and I'm sure you could find something for less.Â* Also, simple research (looking at one website) says that the Tesla's battery provides around 400 VDC which is fed to an inverter to provide the AC voltage to run the motor(s).Â* Surely someone could put together a battery bank (assuming the car's batteries are not functional) or even have a 480 V 3-phase service installed to run the motors. Now, we just need someone to build the hardware to connect the motor(s) to the drum. Or buy a ready-made winch. On 3/4/2020 12:21 PM, ian wrote: On 3/4/20 7:38 AM, Paul Remde wrote: Any thoughts...?Â* I'm just dreaming about the future of gliding.... Speaking as a winch instructor. One requirement for a safe winch launch is for the glider to always be in a position to make a safe landing in the event of a launch failure. Thus the launch profile must be such that by the time that you are too high to land straight ahead you have sufficient height to fly a small circuit and land back on the runway. You also want some overlap between the two options to take the stress out of decision making. If you winching into zero or low winds, a 180 deg turn and landing "downwind" is also an option. If you are winch launching a sustainer, the requirement must be for the glider to launch, release, attempt an engine start and then still be in a position to make a safe landing if the engine fails. What you do not want, is to make a habit of releasing over the downwind threshold, to low to fly a circuit back over the runway. (Yes this is accepted for aerotow. But the launch failure rate is much lower and simulated launch failure training is done in light winds which allow landing downwind.) One option is a conventional ground launch, car or winch to say 1000' AGL. Glider can then fly a circuit, start the engine on downwind and be in a position to land if the engine does not start. This would work for any sustainer technology. The ground launch is an "existing art" and you can get training and ratings for it. There are also established clubs with the means to provide the launch. Next option is the "launch to 100'". This must be done such that you can release, attempt an engine start and still be able to land straight ahead if it fails. A variation involves deploying and even starting the engine before launch, with a pylon mounted engine, like a jet, but not possible with FES. This saves some time for the engine start and reduces the risk of a start failure. These launches have been done, but you wont easily find an "approved procedure" accepted by manufacturers and authorities etc. Last comment, is do not assume that FES cannot suffer a launch failure. They have safety control systems and all it would take is one contact breaker "trip" to spoil your day. Also remember that any battery energy you use to get from 100' to "start of soaring" will not be available for a retrieve later in the day. But yes, this could be the future of gliding ... Ian -- Dan, 5J How hard could it be? Sigh UH |
#16
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Mini-Winch for FES
On Wed, 04 Mar 2020 18:46:18 +0000, Dave Walsh wrote:
Really? You think "progress being made on electric cars and their batteries"? Sure there are a lot of them out there but the battery technology they use has been around for years. Lots of fancy batteries in development labs and in Universities but none in any commercially available vehicle. A new technology has just been announced, which uses sodium anodes and a lithium-glass electrolyte. It claims greater durability, much less flammability, and a considerably longer life than Lithium-ion. Normally I'd go off muttering abouyt pipe-dreams except that the lead researcher is John Goodenough. He has an excellent track record in this field since he was in the team that developed the lithium-ion battery, and shared the Nobel Prize for Chemistry for that. Says this tech could be commercially successful in 5 - 10 years. The story is he https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/03/02/ canadian_firm_to_develop_goodenoughs_new_glass_bat tery/ ===== But, back to electric winches. Here's the website for what looks to be the most successful German electric winch maker: http://www.startwinde.de/ The main site is in German, so if you don't read German, start here instead: https://onkelmaggus.beepworld.de/index.htm This winch is basically a purpose-designed trailer containing a couple of cable drums, a 200 kW electric motor and a big pile of lead-acid truck batteries to act as a buffer between it and a 12-20 kW mains connection. We looked at this system a few years back and decided that running cables to the various places where we park our winch depending on the wind direction was too expensive to justify going electric, so now we have a Skylaunch and a Tost they refurbished, both running on LPG. -- Martin | martin at Gregorie | gregorie dot org |
#17
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Mini-Winch for FES
On 3/4/20 3:12 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Wed, 04 Mar 2020 18:46:18 +0000, Dave Walsh wrote: Really? You think "progress being made on electric cars and their batteries"? Sure there are a lot of them out there but the battery technology they use has been around for years. Lots of fancy batteries in development labs and in Universities but none in any commercially available vehicle. A new technology has just been announced, which uses sodium anodes and a lithium-glass electrolyte. It claims greater durability, much less flammability, and a considerably longer life than Lithium-ion. Normally I'd go off muttering abouyt pipe-dreams except that the lead researcher is John Goodenough. He has an excellent track record in this field since he was in the team that developed the lithium-ion battery, and shared the Nobel Prize for Chemistry for that. Says this tech could be commercially successful in 5 - 10 years. The story is he https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/03/02/ canadian_firm_to_develop_goodenoughs_new_glass_bat tery/ Yep, that's been making the rounds again recently. Announced in 2016, supposed to be commercially viable in another 5-10 years. The good thing is Goodenough is 97 years old, and unlikely to be around to take criticism if it doesn't pay off. In the mean time, we've got lithium-sulfer, lithium-carbon dioxide, lithium graphene, the mysterious IBM seawater battery, semi-solidstate lithium, and others to look forward to. Which one will deliver the miraculous increase in capacity in a couple years that the electric plane makers keep talking about? I see the Germans burned up their Lilium eVTOL "jet" prototype a few days ago, 36 ducted fans on something targeted as an electric flying taxi cab. If they're going to keep burning up prototypes, maybe they should do it in Greta Thundberg's back yeard, so she can experience what a fully involved lithium battery fire actually smells like. |
#18
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Mini-Winch for FES
On one level I think this is an interesting idea. The concept of a low
level launch and climb away on FES is one that I've heard others raise, but always in relation to aerotow. The norm in a winch launch is to gently transition to a 45 degree climb in a way which ensures you can always recover to a safe attitude and subsequent landing. This transition typically happens at 30' - 100'. In principle, if there was enough demand, I think it would be possible to develop a lower powered winch, and a shallower climb to release, but from a safety perspective, you would need to be able to ensure that if the FES did not start, you could always land safely. Given the likely release height, this would need a long enough run to land ahead safely from any failure. The dynamic would be very site specific. While any 'lower powered winch' might be slightly cheaper than one which could launch to higher heights, most of the engineering would be very similar, and my guess is not much cheaper. The days of low cost, self help winches have largely gone in Europe, with the reality being that while these were cheap(ish) to build, they could be quite dangerous. The modern equivalent are much, much safer to operate (ground operations and flying wise) but expensive. IIt;s an interse think for most US operations with limited winch experience, the learning curve for even the most modern kit would be steep. Also factor in that most high performance gliders will want to get airborne fully ballasted. This increases the likelihood of a launch failure, and might make a safe landing from a failure much more interesting. I have thousands of winch launches, and train others to recover from failures, but always choose to fly my ballasted Ventus from aerotow. It's just about the risk balance. It's an interesting idea, and is certainly possible in my view, but I don't really think it's commercially viable option where there is no existing infrastructure. At our club, with all of the winch launching infrastructure in place, the small number of FES equipped gliders choose to go to the top of the winch launch (we would charge the same anyway). Lower launches would save some fuel, but mixing lower launched with higher ones would be a pain, and save no time. Overall, I think a low level aerotow might be a much better option. While winch launching is very common in Europe, At 05:38 04 March 2020, Paul Remde wrote: Hi, This is just a thought... =20 I=E2=80=99ve recently been extremely interested in the FES (Front Electric = Sustainer) sailplanes. They are becoming quite popular. Even very high-pe= rformance racing sailplanes like the Ventus 3 are being sold with FES syste= ms installed. I am the U.S. dealer for DG/LS and they offer the LS8e neo with FES and the= new DG-1001e neo with FES prototype will fly very soon. It will be the fi= rst 2-seat sailplane with FES. I would love to trade my DG-1000S in for a = DG-1001e neo with FES, but so far my DG-1000S co-owners aren't ready for th= at upgrade. I'm not very experienced with winches and certainly not an expert on such m= atters, but I think there may be a nice market for a very small electric wi= nch designed to get an FES-equipped sailplane just up to 100 feet =E2=80=93= high enough to use the FES to climb to the first thermal. Even self-launc= h capable FES sailplanes would benefit from a small winch because they woul= d save much more of the sailplane's battery for use later in the flight - s= ince the initial takeoff roll requires a lot of power. You can see an interesting video showing an FES-equipped sailplane taking a= n autotow to about 100 feet he=20 https://youtu.be/pTeNKM2cXQk=20 I would think that an electric winch could get a glider to 100 feet quite e= asily and be quite small and relatively inexpensive. The rope needed would= be much less, and the drum could be much smaller =E2=80=93 I imagine. A "level ground bungee launch" to 100 feet would be another interesting opt= ion. But I would think that would have risks from by the bungee snapping o= r coming loose and hurting someone.=20 Any thoughts...? I'm just dreaming about the future of gliding... Best Regards, Paul Remde Cumulus Soaring, Inc. |
#19
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Mini-Winch for FES
I'd rather take my chances on something that would accelerate the glider 0-50 knots in 50 meters with the FES running from the very start of the roll. This would increase available runway ahead for launch failure and conserve a bit of battery power. Fully automated with pilot pushing the go button..
How much runway do you need to self-launch a heavy two place FES when there is sink and windshear present? |
#20
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Mini-Winch for FES
I'd rather take my chances on something that would accelerate the glider 0-50 knots in 50 meters with the FES running from the very start of the roll. This would increase available runway ahead for launch failure and conserve a bit of battery power. Fully automated with pilot pushing the go button.
You just need to an old aircraft carrier catapult! |
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