Who's Boss?

I'm flying into my home base KHKS at night in a single engine airplane. At
no point have I been outside of glide range to an airport. I am VFR shooting
a practice full approach in Class C airspace going into a Class D airport.
The controller wants me to descend to 2,000 feet five miles before the FAF
for traffic (which I can plainly see.) I want to stay at 4,000 and stay
within glide range and descend more slowly. Do I have the authority to tell
him no?

--

Wyatt Emmerich
President, Emmerich Newspapers
601-977-0470

PO Box 16709, Jackson MS 39236
Shipping: 246 Briarwood Drive, Suite 101, Jackson MS 39206

Sure, you are PIC, magic word is "'unable" as "Unable 2,000 now, due to
safety of flight, have traffic in sight, will maintain visual"

But the controller is required to provide separation for participating
traffic, so you may well be told to turn left heading 260, vectors for
sequencing, expect 20 minute delay for traffic.



"Wyatt Emmerich" wrote in message
...
| I'm flying into my home base KHKS at night in a single engine airplane. At
| no point have I been outside of glide range to an airport. I am VFR
shooting
| a practice full approach in Class C airspace going into a Class D airport.
| The controller wants me to descend to 2,000 feet five miles before the
FAF
| for traffic (which I can plainly see.) I want to stay at 4,000 and stay
| within glide range and descend more slowly. Do I have the authority to
tell
| him no?
|
| --
|
| Wyatt Emmerich
| President, Emmerich Newspapers
| 601-977-0470
|
| PO Box 16709, Jackson MS 39236
| Shipping: 246 Briarwood Drive, Suite 101, Jackson MS 39206
|
|

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
...

Sure, you are PIC, magic word is "'unable" as "Unable 2,000 now, due to
safety of flight, have traffic in sight, will maintain visual"

But the controller is required to provide separation for participating
traffic, so you may well be told to turn left heading 260, vectors for
sequencing, expect 20 minute delay for traffic.


In Class C airspace all traffic is participating traffic.

On Dec 17, 7:45 pm, "Wyatt Emmerich" wrote:
I'm flying into my home base KHKS at night in a single engine airplane. At
no point have I been outside of glide range to an airport. I am VFR shooting
a practice full approach in Class C airspace going into a Class D airport.
The controller wants me to descend to 2,000 feet

You don't say what approach you are doing, but if you are at 4000, and
5 miles from Brenz, then there is no way in haydes you are doing a
"practice approach" assuming you are doing an ILS into 16.

As Jim sez, you are the boss, and my experiences with KJAN is that
they will give you what you want, but their standard altitude is 2000
until established for all approaches from the north. From the south,
it's higher due to the antenna farm..

I shoot the ILS 16 all the time over there and depending on the
ceilings, will request 3000 to get IMC time when ceilings dictate.

I bet http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHC-s9cl8cE will look might
familiar :-) as I worked the dickens out of Brenz LOL

http://www.youtube.com/BeechSundowner, I am sure will bring home
memories as I have KJAN, KMBO and KHKS approaches, both VFR and IFR
for all three airports as well as other airports in and out of
Mississippi.

Allen
(based in KMBO)

Correct. 2000 from the north, 3700 from the south to keep me from running
into an antenna. But the controllers don't seem to be nearly as concerned
about my safety if my engine quits. That's my point: I know where the
antennas are. And I have the traffic on TIS or visually. The only thing I'm
really worried about is gliding to the airport if my engine dies. But the
controllers seem oblivious to my real concern. And this guy was downright
determined to make me descend below my power-off glide altitude.


wrote in message
...
On Dec 17, 7:45 pm, "Wyatt Emmerich" wrote:
I'm flying into my home base KHKS at night in a single engine airplane.
At
no point have I been outside of glide range to an airport. I am VFR
shooting
a practice full approach in Class C airspace going into a Class D
airport.
The controller wants me to descend to 2,000 feet

You don't say what approach you are doing, but if you are at 4000, and
5 miles from Brenz, then there is no way in haydes you are doing a
"practice approach" assuming you are doing an ILS into 16.

As Jim sez, you are the boss, and my experiences with KJAN is that
they will give you what you want, but their standard altitude is 2000
until established for all approaches from the north. From the south,
it's higher due to the antenna farm..

I shoot the ILS 16 all the time over there and depending on the
ceilings, will request 3000 to get IMC time when ceilings dictate.

I bet http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHC-s9cl8cE will look might
familiar :-) as I worked the dickens out of Brenz LOL

http://www.youtube.com/BeechSundowner, I am sure will bring home
memories as I have KJAN, KMBO and KHKS approaches, both VFR and IFR
for all three airports as well as other airports in and out of
Mississippi.

Allen
(based in KMBO)

wrote:

Correct. 2000 from the north, 3700 from the south to keep me from running
into an antenna. But the controllers don't seem to be nearly as concerned
about my safety if my engine quits.


Controllers separate you from aircraft, terrain, obstructions and
airspace. Your engine quitting is not a concern to ATC. If it's that
critical for you IFR flight will be problematic at best in a single
engine airplane. A typical approach will have you at about 1800 AGL at
the marker/FAF. You're not coasting in from there.



That's my point: I know where the
antennas are.

Irrelevant.


And I have the traffic on TIS or visually.


TIS is irrelevant for separation. And you don't know that the other
aircraft was the sole reason.



The only thing I'm
really worried about is gliding to the airport if my engine dies. But the
controllers seem oblivious to my real concern. And this guy was downright
determined to make me descend below my power-off glide altitude.





You're IFR so certain rules and procedures will apply. Can't abide?
Then you'll have to go VFR.

"Newps" wrote in message
. ..

You're IFR so certain rules and procedures will apply. Can't abide? Then
you'll have to go VFR.


He was VFR.

If I'm in IMC I can still find see what I'm crashing into (unless the
ceilings are really, really low). In daylight, there's a very good chance of
missing the trees and finding a field or road, at least in Mississippi. At
night (and this was a moonless night) it's hard to see much when you are
forced to land.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Newps"
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.ifr
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 11:02 PM
Subject: Who's Boss?


"Newps" wrote in message
. ..


wrote:

Correct. 2000 from the north, 3700 from the south to keep me from running
into an antenna. But the controllers don't seem to be nearly as concerned
about my safety if my engine quits.


Controllers separate you from aircraft, terrain, obstructions and
airspace. Your engine quitting is not a concern to ATC. If it's that
critical for you IFR flight will be problematic at best in a single engine
airplane. A typical approach will have you at about 1800 AGL at the
marker/FAF. You're not coasting in from there.



That's my point: I know where the
antennas are.

Irrelevant.


And I have the traffic on TIS or visually.


TIS is irrelevant for separation. And you don't know that the other
aircraft was the sole reason.



The only thing I'm
really worried about is gliding to the airport if my engine dies. But the
controllers seem oblivious to my real concern. And this guy was downright
determined to make me descend below my power-off glide altitude.





You're IFR so certain rules and procedures will apply. Can't abide? Then
you'll have to go VFR.

Turn on the landing light at 200 feet, if you don't like what you see, turn
it off.

That is why they sell twins. But if you are not very well trained and
current, twins crash out of control and have a fatal rate worse than the
singles. Of course every engine failure in a single probably is reported
and only the accidents get reported in twins.


wrote in message
...
| If I'm in IMC I can still find see what I'm crashing into (unless the
| ceilings are really, really low). In daylight, there's a very good chance
of
| missing the trees and finding a field or road, at least in Mississippi. At
| night (and this was a moonless night) it's hard to see much when you are
| forced to land.
|
| ----- Original Message -----
| From: "Newps"
| Newsgroups: rec.aviation.ifr
| Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 11:02 PM
| Subject: Who's Boss?
|
|
| "Newps" wrote in message
| . ..
|
|
| wrote:
|
| Correct. 2000 from the north, 3700 from the south to keep me from
running
| into an antenna. But the controllers don't seem to be nearly as
concerned
| about my safety if my engine quits.
|
|
| Controllers separate you from aircraft, terrain, obstructions and
| airspace. Your engine quitting is not a concern to ATC. If it's that
| critical for you IFR flight will be problematic at best in a single
engine
| airplane. A typical approach will have you at about 1800 AGL at the
| marker/FAF. You're not coasting in from there.
|
|
|
| That's my point: I know where the
| antennas are.
|
| Irrelevant.
|
|
| And I have the traffic on TIS or visually.
|
|
| TIS is irrelevant for separation. And you don't know that the other
| aircraft was the sole reason.
|
|
|
| The only thing I'm
| really worried about is gliding to the airport if my engine dies. But
the
| controllers seem oblivious to my real concern. And this guy was
downright
| determined to make me descend below my power-off glide altitude.
|
|
|
|
|
| You're IFR so certain rules and procedures will apply. Can't abide?
Then
| you'll have to go VFR.
|
|
|
|

It's interesting that the our instrument approaches (and controllers) don't
consider single engine power outages and glide ratios when directing
traffic. Many approaches have you descending below glide distances way
sooner than need be. With all the worry and concern about terrain,
obstacles, seperation, etc. you'd think somebody would have raised this
safety issue.


"Newps" wrote in message
. ..


wrote:

Correct. 2000 from the north, 3700 from the south to keep me from running
into an antenna. But the controllers don't seem to be nearly as concerned
about my safety if my engine quits.


Controllers separate you from aircraft, terrain, obstructions and
airspace. Your engine quitting is not a concern to ATC. If it's that
critical for you IFR flight will be problematic at best in a single engine
airplane. A typical approach will have you at about 1800 AGL at the
marker/FAF. You're not coasting in from there.



That's my point: I know where the
antennas are.

Irrelevant.


And I have the traffic on TIS or visually.


TIS is irrelevant for separation. And you don't know that the other
aircraft was the sole reason.



The only thing I'm
really worried about is gliding to the airport if my engine dies. But the
controllers seem oblivious to my real concern. And this guy was downright
determined to make me descend below my power-off glide altitude.





You're IFR so certain rules and procedures will apply. Can't abide? Then
you'll have to go VFR.