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No spin training in the US?



 
 
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  #11  
Old April 2nd 05, 09:27 PM
Mark Morissette
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Yes, typical government approach of throwing the baby out with the bath
water. The problem wasn't spin training per se, it was instructors not
proficient in how to conduct spin training. So, rather than address
that root problem, the Feds simply removed the requirement and
discouraged the practice entirely.


Ok, looking back on most peoples responses here, this seems to be the
concensus - rather then ensure that those who are training the spins
to begin with are sufficiently trained themselves, and flying aircraft
suitable for spin training, the requirement was just removed in the
USA.

IMHO, a bad move, and a band-aid solution.

Like I mentioned, I can say one thing for sure - the spin training I
took as a student here in Canada made me know what to expect, and how
to handle it.

I "read" about spins in the POH and my traning manuals for the week
before I actually flew the lesson. Yep, I had everthing I should have
"needed" to know in my head.

However, I quickly learned after my first actual spin that the real
thing is different then reading about it. There was no doubt the
training helped, as after a few spins (within 10 to 20 minutes), I was
able to recover rapdily after the incipient stage, often loosing only
minimal alittude.

In a base turning final situation, after accomplishing the spin
training, I'm sure the possibility of recovering is much greater for
me, vs. someone who only ever read about it, but never did a spin in
practice.

The fact that there was such a large number of spin training related
accidents in the USA makes me wonder if perhaps alot of instructors
are just not quite up to their task?

My comments are in no way meant to be personal or insulting to any
instructors here, but is this a possibilty? Is this a problem with
instructor ratings perhaps being easier, or a little "too" easy to
obtain in the USA, versus other countries?

With spins being mandatory here, the instructors handle it like any
other lesson, and there doesn't seem to be any worry about it being a
"dangerous" lesson in any regard. Pretty much every week in the peak
seasons, there is some student doing spins in the training area.

At least here, it's dealt with as just another checkmark in the
training logbook..

  #12  
Old April 2nd 05, 09:50 PM
george
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We have (or when I was flying) had a exercise entering fully developed
stalls where you were in a takeoff configuration. partial power, full
flap and high nose position to maintain altitude.
This execise is sufficient for sport pilots to recognise the onset of a
spin.
But learning to fly DH82's spin training and air restarts were
mandatory :-))

  #13  
Old April 3rd 05, 01:55 AM
houstondan
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general to the group: in spin training, what seems to have been been
the most popular way to screw up? i understand the drill and i'm having
trouble picturing how to mess up that badly in the typical training
cessana starting at maybe 2500' agl.

now that i've got my tailwheel endorsment, spin training is next
(after i gather a few more aluminum cans from beside the highway for
the fliyin fund!).

dan

  #14  
Old April 3rd 05, 02:23 AM
george
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houstondan wrote:
general to the group: in spin training, what seems to have been

been
the most popular way to screw up? i understand the drill and i'm

having
trouble picturing how to mess up that badly in the typical training
cessana starting at maybe 2500' agl.


Using Aileron instead of rudder to pick the wing up after the wingdrop
will make the rest of your day quite boring :-)


now that i've got my tailwheel endorsment, spin training is next
(after i gather a few more aluminum cans from beside the highway for
the fliyin fund!).


Why is it that the good things cost the most ?

  #15  
Old April 3rd 05, 02:46 AM
Dave
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Hmmmm....

I will wait for this answer as well Dan..

We were taught to start all spins at 5000 ft +...never below..

I spin our 172 regularly just to stay sharp at recovery, and besides
that, it's great fun!

I wonder what I would have to screw up to make the "smoking hole" from
5 K, in such a gentle manouver as a spin....

Oh, and if anybody here has NOT done one..

- you don't get "tossed around" inside the aircraft.
- It is gentle on the aircraft...
- Is a non issue with modern gyros
-The g's on recovery seldom exceed 1.5 G's...
- The attitude is VERY unusual,- the windscreen is totally full of
"ground" , and it's rotating, and it REALLY gets your attention! I
believe it is a good idea to do enough of them to eliminate the
"surprise" factor, and have the "automatic reflexes" of recovery kick
into gear early.

There is about 2 - 3 seconds of "oh ****" in your 1st spin that could
kill you close to the ground....

IMHO one should "train out" those first 2-3 seconds and give your
self and passengers a far better chance of survival..

YMMV!

Dave



On 2 Apr 2005 16:55:54 -0800, "houstondan"
wrote:

general to the group: in spin training, what seems to have been been
the most popular way to screw up? i understand the drill and i'm having
trouble picturing how to mess up that badly in the typical training
cessana starting at maybe 2500' agl.

now that i've got my tailwheel endorsment, spin training is next
(after i gather a few more aluminum cans from beside the highway for
the fliyin fund!).

dan


  #16  
Old April 3rd 05, 03:05 AM
Matt Whiting
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houstondan wrote:
general to the group: in spin training, what seems to have been been
the most popular way to screw up? i understand the drill and i'm having
trouble picturing how to mess up that badly in the typical training
cessana starting at maybe 2500' agl.

now that i've got my tailwheel endorsment, spin training is next
(after i gather a few more aluminum cans from beside the highway for
the fliyin fund!).

dan


One way that was relayed to me by a crusty old instructor is to have the
student freeze at the controls making it hard for the instructor to
recover from the spin.


Matt
  #17  
Old April 3rd 05, 03:38 AM
Mark Morissette
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general to the group: in spin training, what seems to have been been
the most popular way to screw up? i understand the drill and i'm having
trouble picturing how to mess up that badly in the typical training
cessana starting at maybe 2500' agl.


As someone else mentioned, using aileron instead of rudder.

Admittedly, I almost did it on my first ever spin while
training....it's instinctive, and it's a *hard* habit to break,
especially when you are at such an unusual attitude after the wing
drops and the nose suddenly is pointed towards the ground. :-)

I caught myself in mid-movement of the yoke, and corrected ailerons
back to neutral for the rest of the recovery, but the instinct to
correct with aileron before the plane is actually flying again, and
not stalled, is overwhelming.

On the first one or two spins, there is definately an "oh crap" factor
that causes your hands to override what your head is telling you is
the "right thing" to do.

My instructor suggested that I "Wedge" my elbow somewhere on the door
to prevent me from physically using aileron untill I got past the
actual spin, and have recovered from it. That worked for me, although
after the 3rd spin (I think we did 5 or 6 in the lesson plan) I had it
pretty much down, and really didn't need to do that any longer.

As for 2500 AGL you quoted, that's wayyyyy low.. Our training area
is about 650' asl, and we were climbing through to 4500' before each
spin... It was a comfortable height, and even after recovery from 2
or 3 turns in the spin, I never felt uncomfortably low.

  #18  
Old April 3rd 05, 03:46 AM
George Patterson
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houstondan wrote:
general to the group: in spin training, what seems to have been been
the most popular way to screw up?


The best way to make it terminal seems to be to get the loading wrong in such a
way that you can't recover from the spin. According to a fellow I spoke to at
the Maule factory, it is nearly impossible to recover in an MX-7 with the CG at
one extreme of the envelope (he did not remember which extreme but thought it
might be aft). Maule placards the aircraft "Intentional spins prohibited."
Between 5 and 10 years ago, two CFIs died in a PA-28 near Solberg when the spin
went flat. The last time this thread surfaced, several people said that loading
is also critical in some models of C-172.

George Patterson
Whosoever bloweth not his own horn, the same shall remain unblown.
  #19  
Old April 3rd 05, 04:25 AM
Mark Morissette
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I spin our 172 regularly just to stay sharp at recovery, and besides
that, it's great fun!


Curious why are you doing spins in a 172? Your own plane?

Besides it not being allowed unless you are in the Utility W&B
envelope, from everything I've read and understand the 172 is not a
great plane for spin training regardless.

The flightschool I'm at won't allow spin training in their 172's
regardless of W&B within utility... 152's are mandatory when that
portion of the curriculum arrives.

- you don't get "tossed around" inside the aircraft.


True, although I wouldn't leave my kneeboard or a pen loose in the
cockpit during spins, regardless.

- It is gentle on the aircraft...


Well, I could debate that one..

- Is a non issue with modern gyros


From everything I've read, true.

-The g's on recovery seldom exceed 1.5 G's...


Again, from student to student that could change.. With a good
recovery and plenty of alt, that sounds about right.. I'd be surprised
if I pulled more then 1.5 on the recovery...however, my CFI has
apparently had some "not so pretty" recoveries that resulted in not so
pretty recoveries, which probably exceeded 1.5g by a sizable margin.

- The attitude is VERY unusual,- the windscreen is totally full of
"ground" , and it's rotating, and it REALLY gets your attention! I
believe it is a good idea to do enough of them to eliminate the
"surprise" factor, and have the "automatic reflexes" of recovery kick
into gear early.


Yep! My exact resoning behind the fact that I feel spin training
should still be mandatory.

There is about 2 - 3 seconds of "oh ****" in your 1st spin that could
kill you close to the ground....


Yep! :-)

  #20  
Old April 3rd 05, 05:55 AM
Grumman-581
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"Dave" wrote in message ...
I wonder what I would have to screw up to make the "smoking hole" from
5 K, in such a gentle manouver as a spin....


Switch aircraft and try it in an AA1... That'll get your attention, I
suspect...


 




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