No spin training in the US?

"Mark Morissette" wrote in message
...
What's eveyrones opinion regarding the lack of spin traning for
students in the US? I see that there was a thread about this from an
instructor viewpoint a while back, but not necessarilly from the
student viewpoint.

Spin training died with the publication of "Stick and Rudder" by
Langewiesche. It took a few years, but death was inevitable. When this book
became widely accepted, with its emphasis on training in stall avoidance and
its calls for aircraft designs that would not stall, let alone spin, people
became convinced that spin training was both dangerous and unnecessary. Even
rudder pedals would become anachronisms and airplanes would no longer even
be capable of uncoordinated flight. After all, why teach pilots how to
recover from spins when airplanes of the future won't spin?

"houstondan" wrote in message
oups.com...
general to the group: in spin training, what seems to have been been
the most popular way to screw up?

Well, maybe not the most popular, but there are also odd things that can go
wrong:

A guy practicing spins in his Citabria down in Borrego Springs managed to
get a loose seatbelt in the empty seat wrapped around the control stick. He
chose to join the Caterpillar Club rather than ride his airplane down (wise
choice).

An instructor and his student in Canada managed to jam the rudder on a
Cessna 152 when a maintenance man made undocumented modifications to the
rudder. Attempts to un-jam it just made it worse. They landed in a lake.
They both survived the initial landing, but the instructor got tangled in
his seat belt and drowned.

C J Campbell wrote:

After all, why teach pilots how to recover from spins when airplanes
of the future won't spin?

My perspective is one of a student pilot, so I'll happily defer to those
who know more than I do on the topic if it turns out that I'm looking at
this the wrong way. With that said, it seems counterintuitive to not to
perform spin recovery during training for the Private. We spend so much
time and effort learning, drilling, and become proficient at all sorts
of "non-optimal" flying situations (stalls, unusual attitudes, BAI,
engine out, etc etc) that not doing spins seems like a glaring omission.
Should we be trained to recognize the factors that lead to a spin?
Absolutely (we are). Should we be taught how to recover from spins?
Absolutely (we are).

Should we be required to demonstrate that knowledge during the
checkride? Well, that's a call for the FAA, but I believe we should at
least have to earn an endorsement that says we've demonstrated
proficiency during our training. After all, we have to earn a solo
endorsement. Why not a spin endorsement, too? I feel strongly enough
about this that I'll be seeking spin training post-ticket. If it'll help
me become a safer, more knowledgeable, more competent pilot, it's worth
the money. Why would *anyone* want their first experience with
*demonstrated* spin recovery to be when they *need* it? That seems to be
a dangerous gambit. Do I plan on getting into spins routinely? Heck no!!
But, we don't train exclusively for the routine. We train for the
exceptions, too.

As a related question: Does anyone know if the post-ticket fatalities
caused by spins have changed at all since the FAA removed demonstrating
them from the PTS?

Anyway, that's my $.02 on the topic. I'm quite happy to stand corrected
if it turns out I'm off-base here. I look forward to your collective
feedback.


--J

After earning my Private, I went on to take spin training (then
Aerobatic Training).

Just because it's not mandatory - doesn't mean it's not a good idea.
More new pilots should realize the value of continued education - and
find ways to get it.

One story about a Cherokee or Cessna getting tossed by turbulence or
jet blast/prop wash might get their attention.

Keep in mind.... It's really your ass up there!

It's not the spinning that may break the aircraft, it is the recovery.
Let it go too long and build up too much airspeed and pull too hard and,
yes, something may break.

On Sat, 02 Apr 2005 21:46:19 -0400, Dave
wrote:
- It is gentle on the aircraft...

Cub Driver wrote:
Chandler AZ has two Super Cubs. Since I'd never flown at that time, I
asked to do my spin training in a PA-18. They refused because the Cubs
(unlike the Great Lakes trainers they use for aerobatics) have gyro
compasses, and they didn't want to tumble the gyros.
Similarly, Hampton NH prohibits spins in its J-3/L-4 Cubs because of
the age of the aircraft.
So there are two FBOs that don't seem to agree with the gentility of
spins. And I have to say that when I did the spin training in the
Great Lakes, though it was milder than some of the aerobatics I did
later, it was not totally benign. After 90 minutes of it, in the heat,
and driving back to the motel past the stockyard, I sometimes felt
that my own gyros were about to tumble.

-The g's on recovery seldom exceed 1.5 G's...

Again, from student to student that could change.. With a good
recovery and plenty of alt, that sounds about right.. I'd be surprised
if I pulled more then 1.5 on the recovery...however, my CFI has
apparently had some "not so pretty" recoveries that resulted in not so
pretty recoveries, which probably exceeded 1.5g by a sizable margin.

Not much more than 2 to 3 G though. During recovery, speed is still
low, AOA high and if you pull too fast, you endup in secondary stall
or spin again... Seen that a lot with my students...

"Dave" wrote in message
...
- Is a non issue with modern gyros

Humph. Tell my boss that. He won't allow the 172's to be used for spin
training, citing that it greatly shortens the life of the gyros, knocking
them around from stop to stop.

Mark Morissette wrote:
Next thing I knew, the nose was pointed towards the ground... I'm
not sure
of our altitude since it's been a few years since it happened, but I
seriously doubt that it was more than 2000 ft MSL (which basically
equals
AGL in Houston)... Coming out of it was no big deal in the S2B with
plenty
of room to spare... The instructor even had time to ask me if I knew
what I
had done and how I was going to recover from it...

My point wasn't that it would be impossible to recover safely at the
altitude the other poster quoted, it was that for "Training purposes"
it seemed really low.

Yes, the whole point behind the spin training in my mind is that if
it
ever happens while your low and slow (most probable situation, such
as
base/final turn) that the recovery could be made before you made a
smoking hole in the ground.

Personally, when I *know* I'm going to be intentionally entering a
spin, I'd prefer to have a few thousand feet between me and the
ground. For that matter, it's written into the CAR's that recovery
is
made at least 2000'AGL...Or perhaps 2500AGL, I forget exactly..I
should look it up... It's been a while since I completed the spin
training, and it's one of those numbers thats slipped my mind since.

H A S E L
H Height sufficient for recovery 3000 feet AGL
A Area not over a builtup area
S Security hatches harness loose objects secure
E Engine Pressures temps carb heater primer mixture fuel
L Lookout lookout then turn 90 degree lookout turn 180 degree lookout
especially below
set up aircraft for the exercise......

Hi Mark!

On Sat, 02 Apr 2005 22:25:42 -0500, Mark Morissette
Curious why are you doing spins in a 172? Your own plane?

It is available, and yes, we own it...

Besides it not being allowed unless you are in the Utility W&B
envelope, from everything I've read and understand the 172 is not a
great plane for spin training regardless.

Correct, the 152 is a far better A/C for this...

It is ONLY spun well inside the "utility" cat...

The flightschool I'm at won't allow spin training in their 172's
regardless of W&B within utility... 152's are mandatory when that
portion of the curriculum arrives.

- you don't get "tossed around" inside the aircraft.

True, although I wouldn't leave my kneeboard or a pen loose in the
cockpit during spins, regardless.

ALL loose anything is left in the hanger!


- It is gentle on the aircraft...

Well, I could debate that one..

OK !

- Is a non issue with modern gyros

From everything I've read, true.

-The g's on recovery seldom exceed 1.5 G's...

Again, from student to student that could change.. With a good
recovery and plenty of alt, that sounds about right.. I'd be surprised
if I pulled more then 1.5 on the recovery...however, my CFI has
apparently had some "not so pretty" recoveries that resulted in not so
pretty recoveries, which probably exceeded 1.5g by a sizable margin.

Agreed!

We "practice" spins in the 172, we DO NOT train anyone in it..

Now, this is not often, maybe a couple of spins each every 2 -3
months or so. We just unload the plane of loose gear, and head to a
designated practice area and practice steep turns, stalls, spins and
forced approaches. We are quite hard on each other, and every so
often take an instructor along. Like most of us, we feel we don't fly
enough to stay "nifty" with any aircraft, so we go for flights like
this every so often...




Cheers!

Dave

One of our "anal" preflight checks on our 172 is to be SURE the
rudder squarely contacts the stops on the extreme of travel. Mis-
alignment of these stop screws on a Cessna caused a rudder to jam at
full deflection causing a fatal crash a few yrs ago...

Dave

On Sun, 3 Apr 2005 13:11:58 -0700, "C J Campbell"
wrote:


"houstondan" wrote in message
roups.com...
general to the group: in spin training, what seems to have been been
the most popular way to screw up?

Well, maybe not the most popular, but there are also odd things that can go
wrong:

A guy practicing spins in his Citabria down in Borrego Springs managed to
get a loose seatbelt in the empty seat wrapped around the control stick. He
chose to join the Caterpillar Club rather than ride his airplane down (wise
choice).

An instructor and his student in Canada managed to jam the rudder on a
Cessna 152 when a maintenance man made undocumented modifications to the
rudder. Attempts to un-jam it just made it worse. They landed in a lake.
They both survived the initial landing, but the instructor got tangled in
his seat belt and drowned.