Logging Approach Question

"Gerald Sylvester" wrote in message
m...

Tonight I was flying back to SQL GPS 30. There was a dense, 100' thick
ceiling covering half the airport at 800' AGL/MSL.

What was the ASOS reporting? Even if only 1% of the airport is covered
by that cloud if it's over the sensor it becomes your official weather.



Note: my passenger picked out a plane probably at about 600' flying
from PAO to SQL while I was on final. I called out on CTAF (tower
was closed) and didn't hear anything. I wouldn't be surprised
they kept hush knowing they were breaking the regulations. I
had not cancelled IFR and was on the approach and ended up doing
a 360 and climbing. I contacted approach immediately telling him
what I was doing but it could have caused a go around for a heavy
if there was an inbound a/c going into SFO. Fortunately
no one was around. Fortunately my passenger saw the traffic
as they were below me, I was in a low wing, night, with clouds
around and I wasn't expecting him.

So why go around? Couldn't you follow him and land behind him?

SQL was not VFR (despite the moron flying at tree top levels with no
radio).
Your observation made it 800' scattered and 10 miles visibility. Sounds
like VFR to me.

it doesn't to me. You are over a congested area so you have to be at
least 1000' in the air. so where is it VFR other than above 2400+ feet
(SFO reported a ceiling at 1400)

Gerald

quoted text is from the previous 2 replies:

What was the ASOS reporting? Even if only 1% of the airport is covered
by that cloud if it's over the sensor it becomes your official weather.

No AWOS/ASOS. SFO became the official altimeter/weataher even though it
is always much cloudier 10 miles north of SQL.

SPECI KSFO 080635Z 22006KT 10SM FEW008 OVC014 14/11 A2997 RMK AO2

So why go around? Couldn't you follow him and land behind him?

he was directly to the right with him 1-2 miles to my right and what
appeared to be converging into my flight path (1-2 miles could be 10
seconds or 2 minutes), below me and I'm in a low wing and I lost him
(and I had my passenger following him as well), he wasn't talking on the
radio, there are obstacles going up to 560' and I think at the
time I was at 710' (MDA 660). I didn't feel comfortable
so I went around.

How could it have been illegal to fly in VFR if you were able to
remain VMC the whole time?

see the above weather. Controlled airspace begins at 700',
and it is a congested area so you have to be at least 1000.
So unless you are 2400+ you are illegal unless you are in the
pattern and he wasn't in the pattern.

I log an approach whenever it's necessary to fly an SIAP in
order to get in to the field. You say you could have gotten
in VFR, thus an SIAP was not necessary.

I did not say I was able to get in VFR but without going through
any clouds. it wasn't VFR from where I was coming from. I came from
the direction where all the cloud cover was at 1400. I could not
maintain VFR with busting something.

What regulation do you think he was breaking?

definitely minimum altitude over a congested area and very
possibly minimum VFR weather but I didn't look that closely for
clouds in his area.

I log an approach whenever it's necessary to fly an SIAP in
order to get in to the field. You say you could have gotten
in VFR, thus an SIAP was not necessary.

but I could NOT get in VFR. I could maintain visual contact with
some of the ground. I'd say 40% of the ground was covered by the
ceiling, 40% was pitch black as it was water (at night) and 20% was
visibile. See above about the VFR. I couldn't have gotten in VFR
from the direction I was coming (see above). I could get in in
very marginal VMC but not VFR.

Gerald Sylvester



Gerald

"Gerald Sylvester" wrote in message
m...

Note: my passenger picked out a plane probably at about 600' flying
from PAO to SQL while I was on final. I called out on CTAF (tower
was closed) and didn't hear anything.

How do you know he had come from PAO?

"Gerald Sylvester" wrote in message
...

it doesn't to me.


Why not? In your initial message you said, "I was in VMC the whole time yet
it probably would have been illegal to fly in VFR as I would have been close
to the clouds (see note
below about this)." That isn't possible. If you were in VMC the whole time
you were never too close to the clouds, if you were ever closer to the
clouds than allowed by VFR minimums you were not in VMC the whole time.



You are over a congested area so you have to be at
least 1000' in the air. so where is it VFR other than above 2400+ feet


On the half of the field that doesn't have clouds.



(SFO reported a ceiling at 1400)


What does it matter what SFO was reporting? You said the conditions SQL
were "a dense, 100' thick ceiling covering half the airport at 800' AGL/MSL"
and 10 NM visibility. (Note that visibility is reported in statute miles.)
As I said in my previous response, if only half the sky was covered there
was no ceiling as a ceiling requires at least 5/8 sky cover (or an
obscuration).

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Gerald Sylvester" wrote in message
m...

Note: my passenger picked out a plane probably at about 600' flying
from PAO to SQL while I was on final. I called out on CTAF (tower
was closed) and didn't hear anything.
How do you know he had come from PAO?

I didn't know he was *coming* from PAO but was in the direct
line from PAO to SQL. The airports are not that far apart so there
isn't that much room to maneuver between the two. So I simply said from
PAO to SQL.

Gerald

"Gerald Sylvester" wrote in message
...

No AWOS/ASOS. SFO became the official altimeter/weataher even though it
is always much cloudier 10 miles north of SQL.

SPECI KSFO 080635Z 22006KT 10SM FEW008 OVC014 14/11 A2997 RMK AO2


A field either has weather observing or it does not. The SFO weather never
becomes "official" for SQL, only the SFO altimeter setting is used when
observations are not made at SQL.



see the above weather. Controlled airspace begins at 700',
and it is a congested area so you have to be at least 1000.
So unless you are 2400+ you are illegal unless you are in the
pattern and he wasn't in the pattern.


The above weather applies only to SFO.



I did not say I was able to get in VFR but without going through
any clouds. it wasn't VFR from where I was coming from. I came from
the direction where all the cloud cover was at 1400. I could not maintain
VFR with busting something.


Make up your mind. In your initial message you said you were in VMC the
whole time. That means you never got closer to any cloud than allowed by
FAR 91.155 and had at least 3 miles visibility at all times.



definitely minimum altitude over a congested area and very
possibly minimum VFR weather but I didn't look that closely for
clouds in his area.


Minimum altitudes do not apply for takeoff or landing.



but I could NOT get in VFR.


Why not? You said you were in VMC the whole time. That means you were VFR
the whole time.



I could maintain visual contact with
some of the ground. I'd say 40% of the ground was covered by the
ceiling, 40% was pitch black as it was water (at night) and 20% was
visibile. See above about the VFR. I couldn't have gotten in VFR
from the direction I was coming (see above). I could get in in
very marginal VMC but not VFR.


It appears you do not understand the term VMC.

Gerald Sylvester wrote:
No AWOS/ASOS. SFO became the official altimeter/weataher even though it
is always much cloudier 10 miles north of SQL.

let me clarify that. I shouldn't say SFO is the "official" weather.
Norcal always asks for if you have SFO ATIS and when
the SQL Tower has gone home for the night, you use the SFO altimeter
setting per the Jepp charts.

Gerald

Not sure what the FAA lawyers would say, but I operate on the assumption
that only I can say if the approach is loggable.
I am the only one who knows if I am flying by instrument reference. If I do
that in IMC, it is clearly loggable. If I am on an IFR plan, but in marginal
conditions, such that I decide to fly the approach by instrument reference,
then I think it is loggable. If I am on an IFR plan but I land with CAVU,
then it sure does not feel like a loggable approach. If I am flying VMC,
other than simulated (with appropriate SP), then flying by instrument
reference is wrong (and stupid).

When in doubt, do the right thing


"Gerald Sylvester" wrote in message
m...

Tonight I was flying back to SQL GPS 30. There was a dense, 100' thick
ceiling covering half the airport at 800' AGL/MSL. I was
in VMC the whole time yet it probably would have been illegal
to fly in VFR as I would have been close to the clouds (see note
below about this). So even though visibility was 10nm below
the clouds, only have the airport had the ceiling and I never
passed through any clouds, I presume I can still log this
as an approach in "actual."

So can you actually log an approach in actual and never go through
IMC? Sounds strange but I guess you are able to do this. Same
goes passing through a broken layer.


Note: my passenger picked out a plane probably at about 600' flying
from PAO to SQL while I was on final. I called out on CTAF (tower
was closed) and didn't hear anything. I wouldn't be surprised
they kept hush knowing they were breaking the regulations. I
had not cancelled IFR and was on the approach and ended up doing
a 360 and climbing. I contacted approach immediately telling him
what I was doing but it could have caused a go around for a heavy
if there was an inbound a/c going into SFO. Fortunately
no one was around. Fortunately my passenger saw the traffic
as they were below me, I was in a low wing, night, with clouds
around and I wasn't expecting him.

Gerald

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 16:34:11 -0400, "pgbnh" wrote:

If I am flying VMC,
other than simulated (with appropriate SP), then flying by instrument
reference is wrong (and stupid).

Except for a moonless. cloudy night over water (or desert), where you may
be legal VFR, but with no outside references.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)