Instrument Training at night? Good Idea or not?

Most definitely do some instrument training at night. As others have said,
you do not want your first encounter to be real IMC when it is real dark.

Having said that, I add the following:
Do some night IFR simulated in VMC with a competent instructor
Do some night IFR in ACTUAL IMC, but with good enough visibiity and high
enough ceilings to provide an 'out' if you need it (I would vote for a
4-5000 ceiling and 5-8 vis.). These are my personal minimums for night IFR.

I scared the crap out of myself with a night flight in actual, with family
aboard, and about 1000/3. Will not do it again.

wrote in message
oups.com...
I am getting ready to start of Instrument training. I plan on training
during the day on the weekends and 1 or 2 nights during the week.

What are your thoughts on instrument training at night? Personally I
don't fly at night and have only for what was required for my PPSEL.
However my goal is to go on to my Commerical and CFI after the
Instrument.

I know I will have to get proficient at night flying to teach the
PPSEL, but not while IFR.

So, I guess my question comes down to added risk. How much additional
risk am I taking by doing some of my Instrument at night?

On 9/20/2005 12:45, xyzzy wrote:

wrote:

As far as instrument training at night, there are good things and bad things.
The only real bad thing is it may be more difficult to read charts and such over dim
and/or colored cockpit lighting. If you're still still learning the intricacies of
reading IFR charts and plates, that can add a bit of congestion to your already
overloaded head.

Yes, I started IFR training in the winter of last year and did a lot of
basic manuevers and chartless approaches (talked through it by the
instructor) at night. By the time I was doing aproaches and flying
with charts, it was light at my usual training time. Now that it's
gettting dark earlier, I'm surprised at how hard it is to put together
two things I did well independently (maneuver at night under foggles +
use charts).

I too saw this the first time I did a cross county IFR training flight
at night. I had to look at the chart and determine on which bearing
I was from various VORs along the route.

There is a larger work load when having to point a flashlight at the
chart, then at the panel to scan the instruments, then back to the
chart, etc.

It would have been easier if my light had been brighter, but there's
a cost associated with that (in reduced night adaptation).


On the plus side, lots of the subtle visual cues that you get while wearing
foggles aren't there. The small peripheral vision leaks out the side of the foggles,
the sun changing angles on the instrument panels, etc.... those are pretty much gone
at night. You'll have a more realistic environment to train for true "lack of outside
references."

I disagree with this. When at night under the foggles, when you fly
over towns or cities, the glow from the ground is really noticeable in
your peripherial vision. Because of this I feel like at night I'm
actually getting more visual cues than I should when under the foggles.

I agree with this as well. While training, I used to try to ignore all
the visual cues (and was able to get disoriented from time to time) -
flying at night didn't make this any easier... but I was flying over
the valley between Oakland and Sacramento - not the darkest part of
the planet to be sure.



IMO the best VFR conditions for hood training are hazy southeastern
afternoons.


Of course, as others have said - nothing beats actual IMC for giving
you respect for IMC ;-) If any pilot (or prospective pilot) hasn't
experienced it yet, they should grab an instructor and go do it; regardless
of their Instrument Rating aspirations. It will really open your eyes -
Especially if you think "How hard can it be?" ;-)


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA

: It would have been easier if my light had been brighter, but there's
: a cost associated with that (in reduced night adaptation).

Just for the record, I have made (IMO) the perfect chart light for night
flying. I took a regular minimag flashlight (2-AA type) and replaced the bulb with a
single green LED. The smaller one (3/4 T or something... don't remember the size
packages of LEDs offhand) is almost the same size as the original light bulb. I had
to rig in a resistor (47 Ohm IIRC) in between the two AA's to limit the current.

Anyway, bottom line is that it's just enough light to read the features of the
chart easily, but not too much to destroy your night vision. Useless as a regular
flashlight, but it's perfect for charts and it'll last almost forever on a single set
of batteries.

: I agree with this as well. While training, I used to try to ignore all
: the visual cues (and was able to get disoriented from time to time) -
: flying at night didn't make this any easier... but I was flying over
: the valley between Oakland and Sacramento - not the darkest part of
: the planet to be sure.

I'm a bit skewed. Here in the mountains southwest Virginia, there aren't all
that many lights. Certainly little "glow from below". You'd have to see the lights
out of your peripheral vision to get references from them. I found daylight shadows
moving (and my fixed-pitch prop loading/unloading the engine) the most irritating
"cheats" to simulated IMC.

:
: IMO the best VFR conditions for hood training are hazy southeastern
: afternoons.
:

: Of course, as others have said - nothing beats actual IMC for giving
: you respect for IMC ;-) If any pilot (or prospective pilot) hasn't
: experienced it yet, they should grab an instructor and go do it; regardless
: of their Instrument Rating aspirations. It will really open your eyes -
: Especially if you think "How hard can it be?" ;-)

Absolutely agree. My instructor had me do actual for some of my instrument
work for my private. It was a nice, February high overcast chilly day... spent about
20 minutes 500' up in a solid overcast (but above MEA for the area). It felt like 20
hours and I never knew I could sweat so quickly. Here I am... probably about 30 hours
total, flying in solid soup using 98% of my brainpower to keep the shiny side up.
Instructor leans over and points at the windshield saying, "See that? That's airframe
ice."
Anyway... enough to instantly instill respect for IMC and icing. Good
experience to have under controlled circumstances so you don't blunder into it
yourself.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

On 19 Sep 2005 14:38:55 -0700, wrote:

What are your thoughts on instrument training at night? Personally I
don't fly at night and have only for what was required for my PPSEL.

Having the fact that I own my plane, I would fly at night in a heart beat.

I had my engine overhauled shortly after I bought the plane, and I have
managed to nurse my plane to where every button, knob and lever works. It
took me 2 years to get to this point.

Having said this, my first night flight in IMC was not expected. I managed
to get 8.6 actual in the daylight (all training flights) before my first
night cross country flight in actual conditions.

My flight from Stuebenville Ohio to Madison MS, when I left, the forecast
was for severe clear on departure. I knew I would be flying 2 hours after
sunset.

I planned a fuel stop in Bowling Green KY. It was at that fuel stop where
I found out the cold front that was suppose to move south instead became
stationary and turned into a warm front. I had got a flight briefing the
night before, but didn't get one that morning, so I was surprised how
quickly things had changed.

It was severe clear on my first leg, and it was bumpier then I am used to
(should have been my first clue the weather pattern was changing).

Night IFR in the clouds, TO ME, was actually easier then severe clear. The
nav lights gave a very soft glow inside the clouds, making it a soft grey
rather then pitch black. So, while I had to continuously scan my
instruments, I found the nav lights a rather soothing feeling, that I
wasn't in a dark hole and to rest my eyes, I would look at each wing tip to
force myself not to focus on one instrument. I felt no different flying
night IFR then flying VFR as my instrument scan was the same.

I was in and out of rain showers at night, and the only way I knew this was
from hearing the rain beat on the windshield. It was bumpier then all get
out in the clouds, and ATC was more then accommodating when I ask for
altitude changes.

For this flight, I flew 2.5 in actual conditions at night which terminated
as an VOR Alpa approach where I broke out at 1400 feet at MBO.

There is a lot more work at night in cockpit management. You can't just
glance down and pick up a chart, you must be organized. If you have good
cockpit management at night, day IFR operations will be that much simpler.

Radio is much quieter at night! Almost too quiet! I would fly 10 minutes
without hearing a voice. While that is nice in some respect, it also makes
you paranoid, did I lose my radios.

The plane doesn't care if it's IMC or severe clear, day or night. As long
as you have a plane you can trust your life in the daytime, night time IFR
is no different in my opinion.

After all, when you are in the clag, you won't have too many landing
options to look for anyway especially if ceilings are only 1000 feet day or
night.

So, to answer your question, based on my experienced, a big yes, night IFR
training would be a good idea.

Allen

"Mark T. Dame" wrote in :

In my training, I never experienced any vertigo or disorientation with
the foggles on, but I still experience it to this day in actual.

My experience is mostly the opposite - I hate being under the hood, and fly much worse.
Actual IMC is a piece of cake in comparison. YMMV.

I do most of my flying at night, over water, and it's all instrument flying, whether there
are clouds or not. In general, the air is smoother at night, so you'll get much less
turbulence, and thus the aircraft is easier to control. I also find that an ILS approach to
minimums is easier in the dark, because the approach and runway lights are easier to make
out without sunlight scattering everything in the fog. If I have to fly an ILS with 100'
overcast and 1/4 mile vis, I want to do it when it's very dark. I've done it at night and
in the daylight, and I prefer the dark. It does take a different mindset to fly at night,
but that's mostly for takeoff and landing. The enroute flying is pretty much the same, and
I don't think the risk is that much higher at night, disregarding an engine failure. An
engine failure in a single-engine airplane at night is going to be dangerous, no matter
whether you're practicing instruments or just out for fun.

--
Regards,

Stan

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither
liberty nor safety." B. Franklin

wrote in
:


Just for the record, I have made (IMO) the perfect chart light
for night
flying. I took a regular minimag flashlight (2-AA type) and replaced
the bulb with a single green LED. The smaller one (3/4 T or
something... don't remember the size packages of LEDs offhand) is
almost the same size as the original light bulb. I had to rig in a
resistor (47 Ohm IIRC) in between the two AA's to limit the current.

I have a minimag that uses AAA batteries, and put a green LED in it. The
T3 is the right size. I got it from Mouser. I haven't seen the need for
a resistor - it just plugs into the holes for the regular bulb. I wear
it on a lanyard around my neck so I can always find it. But I seldom use
this. I normally use a cheap headlight, which has 2 bright white bulbs
and a single green LED. It came with red, but I changed it out for
green. The white is very useful for preflights and startup, and the
green works well for flying. It always points where I'm looking, and
doesn't blind my FO when I need to read charts and do the company
paperwork. I also carry a regular AA minimag, with a 2 Amp LED bulb and
a diffusion lens, for when I really need light, especially for preflight
walkarounds. White LEDs are great for preflights, because the synthetic
turbine oil in the sightglasses can be hard to see using a weak yellow
incandescent lens. The white LED light makes it show up very well.

--
Regards,

Stan

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." B. Franklin

"Stan Gosnell" wrote in message
...
In my training, I never experienced any vertigo or disorientation with
the foggles on, but I still experience it to this day in actual.
My experience is mostly the opposite - I hate being under the hood, and
fly much worse.
Actual IMC is a piece of cake in comparison. YMMV.

Whether or not you experience negative feelings such as discomfort or
vertigo in artificial IMC, the fact we all seem to concur on is that there's
nothing quite like real IMC. I've used two types of foggles (both a pain in
the backside, particularly if you have to wear glasses to see correctly) and
I've flown an aircraft with custom-made screens that prevent the pilot (but
not the instructor) from seeing outside. Even with such screens, though, the
fact remains that because there are louvres cut so the instructor can keep a
lookout, if you have half-decent peripheral vision there's a good chance
you'll see a horizon there somewhere, out of the corner of your eye, thus
failing to simulate the whole spatial-disorientation thing you're trying to
achieve.

Don't get me wrong, it's handy to have artificial IMC available - not least
because Sod's law dictates that when you want to do an IMC lesson, there's
never a decent cloud around when you want one. But you absolutely must do
some real IMC, or you stand a good chance of being bitten the first time you
do it for real on your own.

The week before I was to do my IMC test, my instructor sent another student
and me with one of his colleagues (it's good to have a check-ride with
someone independent) to fly from my home airfield to another about 60 miles
away. I flew there and did an NDB approach, the other guy flew back and had
the luxury of an ILS. Cloudbase was 1,200 feet with the tops at about 3,500
feet; we departed, climbed through the cloud, flew on top following the
navaids (just us and something big and grey going into Mildenhall - such a
neat experience), then did the approach through cloud. Not only did it
convince the other instructor that I stood a chance of passing my test, but
more importantly it made me think: "Hey, this stuff really does work - if
you do it like it says on the plate, there's a runway at the end of it".

D.

Stan Gosnell wrote:
: I have a minimag that uses AAA batteries, and put a green LED in it. The
: T3 is the right size. I got it from Mouser. I haven't seen the need for
: a resistor - it just plugs into the holes for the regular bulb. I wear
: it on a lanyard around my neck so I can always find it. But I seldom use
: this. I normally use a cheap headlight, which has 2 bright white bulbs
: and a single green LED. It came with red, but I changed it out for
: green. The white is very useful for preflights and startup, and the
: green works well for flying. It always points where I'm looking, and
: doesn't blind my FO when I need to read charts and do the company
: paperwork. I also carry a regular AA minimag, with a 2 Amp LED bulb and
: a diffusion lens, for when I really need light, especially for preflight
: walkarounds. White LEDs are great for preflights, because the synthetic
: turbine oil in the sightglasses can be hard to see using a weak yellow
: incandescent lens. The white LED light makes it show up very well.

I've run LEDs directly from AA's and found that without a bit of current
limiting they tend to damage themselves. Perhaps the AAA has a bit more internal
resistance or the LEDs you chose are a little more resilient or slightly different
material and operating voltage.

In any event, I agree that a headlamp would be nice... haven't rigged one up
yet. Trouble with all the commercial LED lights I've seen is that they're set up to
be like regular flashlights. You know... flood the area with as much light as
possible. That'll wreck any night vision in a heartbeat. The single LED works great
(as you've also found out).

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

Stan Gosnell wrote:

"Mark T. Dame" wrote in :


In my training, I never experienced any vertigo or disorientation with
the foggles on, but I still experience it to this day in actual.

My experience is mostly the opposite - I hate being under the hood, and fly much worse.
Actual IMC is a piece of cake in comparison. YMMV.

I fly better in actual than under the hood as well and much prefer it,
but I don't get vertigo under the hood, whereas I will frequently get it
in actual. Maybe that's why I fly better in actual: I'm expecting
vertigo, so I pay more attention. (-:

I have a friend who gets vertigo so bad in actual (but not with the
foggles) that if he flies into IMC, he'll put on his foggles. Everyone
is affected differently. Which is why you want your first experience in
it to be with an experienced instructor.


-m
--
## Mark T. Dame
## VP, Product Development
## MFM Software, Inc. (http://www.mfm.com/)
"We must acknowledge once and for all that the purpose of diplomacy
is to prolong a crisis."
-- Star Trek: Spock, "The Mark of Gideon"

You may be laughing at my "proficient instructor" comment, but there are
a lot of instructors out there who are not proficient at real IFR

100% correct. At the FBO I teach at I would argue that I'm the ONLY CFI
who feels safe going into the clouds for anything more than a little
whisp. I usually get a fair amount of actual each year. However, I
don't do instrument training (too busy)

-Robert, CFI