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ADSB out in tow planes



 
 
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  #1  
Old June 2nd 18, 02:01 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charles Longley
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Default ADSB out in tow planes

One of our Pawnees has an ADSB out transponder now. (Evergreen Soaring) We’ve had glider pilots we’re towing that have FLARM ask us to turn off our transponder. We’ve told the glider pilots to turn their FLARM down or off. My recommendation is to either have a switch for your FLARM or know you can turn the volume down to a suitable level.

The question I have is does FLARM show up on ADSB in?
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  #2  
Old June 2nd 18, 05:43 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
SoaringXCellence
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Default ADSB out in tow planes

No! it's been discussed before, there is no relationship between the signals of the two systems. PowerFlarm does not do any output of ADS-B, it only receives.
  #3  
Old June 2nd 18, 06:31 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
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Default ADSB out in tow planes

On Friday, June 1, 2018 at 6:01:43 PM UTC-7, Charles Longley wrote:
One of our Pawnees has an ADSB out transponder now. (Evergreen Soaring) We’ve had glider pilots we’re towing that have FLARM ask us to turn off our transponder. We’ve told the glider pilots to turn their FLARM down or off. My recommendation is to either have a switch for your FLARM or know you can turn the volume down to a suitable level.

The question I have is does FLARM show up on ADSB in?


As discussed here before the solution to spurious PowerFLARM alerts in the glider to the towplane ADS-B Out may be to put a PowerFLARM in the towplane so the PowerFLARM in the glider knows it's a towplane and more tolerant of it being close to the glider. There is unfortunately no way for an ADS-B out signal to contain any information to tell PowerFLARM it's a towplane. The FLARM signal does carry that information. it would be great if somebody could experiment with a PowerFLARM portable in the towplane to see if it indeed does solve the issue.

Be careful turning those transponders off, they provide visibility to other aircraft with ADS-B In, TCAS, ATC, all gliders with PowerFLARM with 1090ES In option etc. And if in controlled airspace its a violation of 14 CFR 91.215... and since the towplane is transmitting ADS-B data for all to see and the signal starts going of in flight that may well get noticed. The likely better option if necessary here is for the glider to turn off or turn down the volume on their PowerFLARM while on tow.
  #4  
Old June 2nd 18, 01:53 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
George Haeh
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Default ADSB out in tow planes

You might want to try putting the towplane ICAO ID on FlarmNet and, after the update is available, installing the updated FlarmNet file on the display devices.

Possibly the PowerFLARM will then process the ADS-B return as a towplane. No guarantees, but it may be worth a try and the rest of us would like to know.
  #5  
Old June 2nd 18, 02:49 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Daly[_2_]
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Default ADSB out in tow planes

On Saturday, June 2, 2018 at 8:53:41 AM UTC-4, George Haeh wrote:
You might want to try putting the towplane ICAO ID on FlarmNet and, after the update is available, installing the updated FlarmNet file on the display devices.

Possibly the PowerFLARM will then process the ADS-B return as a towplane. No guarantees, but it may be worth a try and the rest of us would like to know.


Interesting idea. I see in FLARMnet there is a selection for "towplane" in the menu...
  #6  
Old June 2nd 18, 02:59 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
son_of_flubber
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Default ADSB out in tow planes

What is Flarm Inc guidance on Flarm-ADSB glider-towplane interoperability? Trying to determine the true repeatable behavior of Flarm and ADSB based on a few experiments is back-assward.

On Saturday, June 2, 2018 at 1:31:39 AM UTC-4, Darryl Ramm wrote:
... it would be great if somebody could experiment with a PowerFLARM portable in the towplane to see if it indeed does solve the issue.



On Saturday, June 2, 2018 at 8:53:41 AM UTC-4, George Haeh wrote:
You might want to try putting the towplane ICAO ID on FlarmNet and, after the update is available, installing the updated FlarmNet file on the display devices.

Possibly the PowerFLARM will then process the ADS-B return as a towplane. No guarantees, but it may be worth a try and the rest of us would like to know.


  #7  
Old June 2nd 18, 04:34 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charles Longley
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Default ADSB out in tow planes

Good info guys! I am doing more research. There’s an ADSB in option for PowerFLARM that must be what some of the glider pilots are seeing. So if someone put put a Power FLARM core with the ADSB in option into a tow plane what would be the best way to display it? I am thinking iPad mini so ForeFlight could be used for Aero retrieves.
  #8  
Old June 2nd 18, 06:15 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
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Default ADSB out in tow planes

On Saturday, June 2, 2018 at 6:59:10 AM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
What is Flarm Inc guidance on Flarm-ADSB glider-towplane interoperability? Trying to determine the true repeatable behavior of Flarm and ADSB based on a few experiments is back-assward.

On Saturday, June 2, 2018 at 1:31:39 AM UTC-4, Darryl Ramm wrote:
... it would be great if somebody could experiment with a PowerFLARM portable in the towplane to see if it indeed does solve the issue.



On Saturday, June 2, 2018 at 8:53:41 AM UTC-4, George Haeh wrote:
You might want to try putting the towplane ICAO ID on FlarmNet and, after the update is available, installing the updated FlarmNet file on the display devices.

Possibly the PowerFLARM will then process the ADS-B return as a towplane. No guarantees, but it may be worth a try and the rest of us would like to know.


Again, this has all been discussed here in the past. It's FLARM's own comment to somebody experiencing this issue that a PowerFLARM in the towplane should prevent this. Doing a test to confirm you get the benefit that FLARM state seems a very good idea.

I don't expect t putting the towplane into FLARMnet will make a difference for this problem. FLARMnet is about displaying labels for targets, I don't believe that information is used to suppress an alert... but that gets into the behavior of the third party FLARM display, so who knows for sure. So yes, given all the combinations of displays etc. I absolutely would be doing some quick experiments here. And having the towplane in FLARMnet listing it's ICAO ID even if it does not have a PowerFLARM so that other aircraft with a PowerFLARM see a better label for it is nice idea.
  #9  
Old June 2nd 18, 06:54 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dave Nadler
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Default ADSB out in tow planes

To clarify Darryl's comment: FLARMnet data is used by display devices only.
FLARMnet is not used by FLARM or PowerFLARM and has nothing to do with alerts.

Please register your ICAO (FLARM) ID in FLARMnet so everyone using a
FLARMnet-compatible display device (and who has downloaded FLARMnet DB into it)
will see your ID.
Not registering is anti-social!
Thanks!
  #10  
Old June 2nd 18, 07:05 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
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Posts: 2,158
Default ADSB out in tow planes

On Saturday, June 2, 2018 at 8:34:12 AM UTC-7, Charles Longley wrote:
Good info guys! I am doing more research. There’s an ADSB in option for PowerFLARM that must be what some of the glider pilots are seeing. So if someone put put a Power FLARM core with the ADSB in option into a tow plane what would be the best way to display it? I am thinking iPad mini so ForeFlight could be used for Aero retrieves.


You really should look through some old threads on r.a.s. on this stuff.

You don't need a PowerFLARM core, you could use a portable. I would start with trying to borrow somebody's PowerFLARM Portable for an easier quick test. Sure a core could be more nicely installed.

Almost all PowerFLARM in the USA have the "ADS-B" Option. Which is 1090ES In Only. About half a dozen out of many hundred units sold in the USA don't have this option, and some of those owners I've talked to really regret not getting the ADS-B Option. PowerFLARM has some restrictions with ADS-B In, basically bemuse of it's European centric development, they are not being dual-link In (so it cant' see UAT Out equipped targets) and not supporting TIS-B and ADS-R... all that makes it not great for an ADS-B In option in GA/power aircraft.

PowerFLARM is aimed at the glider not GA community, PowerFLARM talks FLARM serial protocol and you can display that ADS-B traffic on any devices that supports that protocol (e.g. LXNav FLARMView displays, Air Avionics traffic displays, LXNav flight computers, ClearNav flight computers, Naviter Oudie, PDA/PNAs running soaring software, etc.)

PowerFLARM does *NOT* talk GDL90 or Garmin display protocol and so cannot display on ForeFlight or similar GA EFB applications.

I would hope the main benefit of having a PowerFLARM in a towplane would be increased safety from better awareness of FLARM equipped gliders and other towplanes while airborne, with hopefully the secondary benefit of helping PowerFLARM equipped gliders on tow not get these annoying alerts about the towplane with ADS-B Out. That all seems much more intersting than finding glider for retrieves. And there practically you need (1) line of sight to the glider on the ground, (actually it's transponder antenna, which might be obscured by the fumerslage... but it's got a lot of power so hopefully will work... but best case you are likely to get a few tens of miles of range, and (2) the glider pilot to leave the transponder on transmitting ADS-B Out and (3) I suspect rely on the glider on the ground *not* transmitting surface mode ADS-B Ou messages which the PowerFLARM will likely ignore... and the glider is required to do that for a 2020 Compliant/SIL-3 ADS-B Out installs. Options like Garmin inReach and Spot and good old VHF radio seem more useful for retrieves, but it's a great thing to think about and something to maybe play with (yes more tests).
 




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