Cost of ownership????

On Mar 21, 1:42 pm, Jon Kraus wrote:
Lou,

It varies tremendously but the one constant is that airplane ownership
is EXPENSIVE when compared against renting. That is unless you fly 200
hours a year (most pilots average 50-75 hours a year).

I don't know about other folks but I have owned for only 3 years so I
don't have much experience but here is what I found.

For a 2 way partnership in a 100k Mooney it costs me about 1000 a month
to fly 5 hours a month. This includes all my fixed costs of $575 (plane
note, hanger rent, XM weather subscription and insurance). We charge
ourselves $85 per tach hour wet. This includes engine reserve, fuel and
some cash put back for annual inspection expenses.

Our first 3 annual's averaged $5000. We have had several times in the
last 3 years where we have had to shell out $1000 here and $1000 there
for things that broke. We like to keep the plane squawk-free so this
could have been cheaper.

Here is the sad part. For me I have come to the realization that I don't
want to shell out this much cash for flying anymore and am offering my
partner the buy-out deal of a lifetime. I am going back to renting but
will probably take a break from flying all together.

Good luck with whatever you do but realize that it will cost you a LOT
more money to own than to rent. That is just a plain and simple fact.

Jon Kraus



Lou wrote:
I (like everyone else) am considering purchasing a plane. I've looked
up the cost of ownership in this group and came up with some good
information. However, I'm looking for a spreadsheet that I can plug
the numbers into. Has anyone either made this or know where to
download one? It's probebly not hard to do but I thought I would look
here first. Anybody? Anybody? Anybody?
Lou- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Its true that owning almost always costs more than renting. However,
the benefit of owning is having a plane set up the way you want it.
There are a lot of reasons to own a plane but none of them are
financial.
-Robert

There are very few absolute truisms in life. I believe I know two of them:

1. If it flies, floats, or fornicates it is far cheaper to rent.

2. If it has tires, tits, or testicles it will eventually give you trouble.


Having said that, you don't need a $100K Super Bugsmasher as your first
airplane. There are tens of thousands of elderly 150s, 172s, Cherokees, and
the like that may not have the sex appeal of a 200 knot bent-gear aircraft,
but they will not eat your pocketbook for lunch either.

You don't need a hopped up 172 with a 200 horse twisty prop to get you to
your Sunday fly-in. The elderly 150 may not get you there in fifteen
minutes ... might take half an hour ... but 90% of the fun of a fly-in is
getting there. Same with most of life.

Depending on whether you are a low wing wimp or a high wing manly guy, you
can start off with a Tripacer (Piper's Milkstool) and work your way up
through the ranks over the years to what you can afford. You may have the
milkstool your whole career. That's the way it goes. Same with a 150 (or a
120/140 if you are a tailwheel kinda guy) and work your way up through the
170/172 series.

Yeah, after 40 years of the 120-170-172 gig I've got a 182. It keeps me on
the edge of poverty, but it is what I can afford. Do I drool at 210s?
Sure. But I didn't jump into a Citation while the ink was still wet on my
private.

Jim



"Jon Kraus" wrote in message
...
Lou,

It varies tremendously but the one constant is that airplane ownership is
EXPENSIVE when compared against renting. That is unless you fly 200 hours
a year (most pilots average 50-75 hours a year).

On Mar 22, 9:26 am, "RST Engineering" wrote:
they will not eat your pocketbook for lunch either.

You don't need a hopped up 172 with a 200 horse twisty prop to get you to
your Sunday fly-in. The elderly 150 may not get you there in fifteen
minutes ... might take half an hour ... but 90% of the fun of a fly-in is
getting there.

And you get to log more time.
-Robert

Thanks for the advice guys, I'm looking at a Grumman yankee. It's
affordable, quick enough
for a first plane, and the reason for the partner is purely cost. I
know I don't fly everyday, and there
is plenty of time to share an airplane.
Lou

On Mar 22, 10:14 am, "Lou" wrote:
Thanks for the advice guys, I'm looking at a Grumman yankee. It's
affordable, quick enough
for a first plane, and the reason for the partner is purely cost. I
know I don't fly everyday, and there
is plenty of time to share an airplane.
Lou

A partnership is a great way to own a plane. The hard part is getting
a partner with similar opinions on things such as upgrades,
maintenance, etc. Many times I've agreed to pay for 1/2 of something I
really didn't care to get but do it for the good of the partnership.
For me, the biggest reason to be in a partnership isn't cost but
rather usage. Flying a plane 50 hours a year is really hard on the
plane, hard on the engine, etc. Planes need to be flying and having a
partner can keep the plane in the air.

-Robret

Lou wrote:
Thanks for the advice guys, I'm looking at a Grumman yankee. It's
affordable, quick enough
for a first plane, and the reason for the partner is purely cost. I
know I don't fly everyday, and there
is plenty of time to share an airplane.
Lou



Great planes - I have a 4 seat grumman. You won't be disappointed with
the model.

On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 09:26:23 -0700, "RST Engineering"
wrote:

There are very few absolute truisms in life. I believe I know two of them:

1. If it flies, floats, or fornicates it is far cheaper to rent.

2. If it has tires, tits, or testicles it will eventually give you trouble.


Having said that, you don't need a $100K Super Bugsmasher as your first
airplane. There are tens of thousands of elderly 150s, 172s, Cherokees, and
the like that may not have the sex appeal of a 200 knot bent-gear aircraft,
but they will not eat your pocketbook for lunch either.

You don't need a hopped up 172 with a 200 horse twisty prop to get you to
your Sunday fly-in. The elderly 150 may not get you there in fifteen
minutes ... might take half an hour ... but 90% of the fun of a fly-in is
getting there. Same with most of life.

Just as a addition to this part. A 172 Hawk XP and I took off from
3BS at the same time It's 50 nauticle miles to HTL from here. I had
just turned off the runway when he called into the pattern. So, unless
it's long distances it matters little whether you are traveling at 200
MPH or 130 and if we go that far it should make little additional
difference if only traveling 100.


Depending on whether you are a low wing wimp or a high wing manly guy, you
can start off with a Tripacer (Piper's Milkstool) and work your way up

Kinds fancy there. I started in a Colt.

through the ranks over the years to what you can afford. You may have the
milkstool your whole career. That's the way it goes. Same with a 150 (or a
120/140 if you are a tailwheel kinda guy) and work your way up through the
170/172 series.

For a two passenger I'd just as soon have a cub although they do get a
bit chilly up here in the winter.


Yeah, after 40 years of the 120-170-172 gig I've got a 182. It keeps me on
the edge of poverty, but it is what I can afford. Do I drool at 210s?
Sure. But I didn't jump into a Citation while the ink was still wet on my
private.

There's a reason I'm flying a 47 year old Beech instead of a 20 year
old.



Jim



"Jon Kraus" wrote in message
.. .
Lou,

It varies tremendously but the one constant is that airplane ownership is
EXPENSIVE when compared against renting. That is unless you fly 200 hours
a year (most pilots average 50-75 hours a year).

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

RST Engineering wrote:

Having said that, you don't need a $100K Super Bugsmasher as your first
airplane. There are tens of thousands of elderly 150s, 172s, Cherokees, and
the like that may not have the sex appeal of a 200 knot bent-gear aircraft,
but they will not eat your pocketbook for lunch either.


I must say that I think you hit the nail on the head... My mistake was
getting the Super Bug Smasher as my first plane. Although I could easily
afford it, I found that I wasn't flying enough to justify the cost.

For my life situation I chose to get out of the ownership hassles (and
there are many) and persue other interests. Flying is a hobby of
extremes. At one end is the beauty and excitement of the flying
experience itself. At the other end is the extreme expense and endless
red-tape involved in even the simplest of repairs or upgrades.

And of course after you fork over many AMU's on a repair or upgrade you
hear the horror stories of some inept A & P that ****s up your plane and
there isn't a damn thing you can do about it, except pay the bill to fix
it that is.

On Wed, 21 Mar 2007 16:42:12 -0400, Jon Kraus
wrote:

Lou,

It varies tremendously but the one constant is that airplane ownership
is EXPENSIVE when compared against renting. That is unless you fly 200
hours a year (most pilots average 50-75 hours a year).

I don't know about other folks but I have owned for only 3 years so I
don't have much experience but here is what I found.

For a 2 way partnership in a 100k Mooney it costs me about 1000 a month
to fly 5 hours a month. This includes all my fixed costs of $575 (plane
note, hanger rent, XM weather subscription and insurance). We charge
ourselves $85 per tach hour wet. This includes engine reserve, fuel and
some cash put back for annual inspection expenses.

Our first 3 annual's averaged $5000. We have had several times in the

How many hours are you putting on that thing?
flying over a 130 hours a year my annuals averaged about $500 to $600
with one being close to $5000 due to a bunch of ADs all coming due the
same time as well as the heater crapping out, a flame cone giveing out
and some other things.

Prior tot he cost of gas going up I was runing about $76 or so an
hour. Gas has gone up less than a dollar a gallon here, but at a one
dollar increase that'd be $90 per hour. That cost includes everything
including annuals and $10 toward a major which is getting close. I
may have to raise that to $15 toward the major. BTW that also includes
over $8,000 fo a new 3-blade hartzel prop exchange and labor.

last 3 years where we have had to shell out $1000 here and $1000 there
for things that broke. We like to keep the plane squawk-free so this
could have been cheaper.

I run a progressive maintenance program which is probably why the
annuals have been relatively inexpensive.


Here is the sad part. For me I have come to the realization that I don't
want to shell out this much cash for flying anymore and am offering my
partner the buy-out deal of a lifetime. I am going back to renting but
will probably take a break from flying all together.

Good luck with whatever you do but realize that it will cost you a LOT
more money to own than to rent. That is just a plain and simple fact.

That I don't believe, but it depends on how much you fly. At 100
hours a year it's cheaper for me to own the Deb than rent a 172 around
here.The Deb is paid for but I do not take any credit toward what I
might get out of it some day. That means when I do sell it I can
average that over the hours I've flown and deduct that from the cost
per hour.


Jon Kraus



Lou wrote:
I (like everyone else) am considering purchasing a plane. I've looked
up the cost of ownership in this group and came up with some good
information. However, I'm looking for a spreadsheet that I can plug
the numbers into. Has anyone either made this or know where to
download one? It's probebly not hard to do but I thought I would look
here first. Anybody? Anybody? Anybody?
Lou

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On 2007-03-21, Lou wrote:
I'm looking for a spreadsheet that I can plug
the numbers into. Has anyone either made this

I even put it on the web:

http://www.ben.com/flying/costown.html

mmm, fuel is actually DOWN since I last updated it!

--
Ben Jackson AD7GD

http://www.ben.com/