Bomber Pilots Never Look Down

"Dave Holford" wrote in message
...


ArtKramr wrote:

Subject: Bomber Pilots Never Look Down
From: Robert Briggs UCKET
Date: 8/13/2004 10:09 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: 411CF5AF.A92C4F07@BITphysi

How do you justify extrapolating from one example to "bomber pilots"
in general?

Easy. All bomber pilots have one thing in common. They fly in formation
eyes
fixed on the plane thay are formed on. No chance to look down. At least
that is
my esperience, what is your experience?

Arthur Kramer


Might be true for B-26 pilots in the ETO during WWII. But that is a long
way from "All bomber pilots."

Dave

Not in Art's little world...

Jack G.

Subject: Bomber Pilots Never Look Down
From: "Jack G"
Date: 8/14/2004 6:07 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:



"Dave Holford" wrote in message
.. .


ArtKramr wrote:

Subject: Bomber Pilots Never Look Down
From: Robert Briggs UCKET
Date: 8/13/2004 10:09 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: 411CF5AF.A92C4F07@BITphysi

How do you justify extrapolating from one example to "bomber pilots"
in general?

Easy. All bomber pilots have one thing in common. They fly in formation
eyes
fixed on the plane thay are formed on. No chance to look down. At least
that is
my esperience, what is your experience?

Arthur Kramer


Might be true for B-26 pilots in the ETO during WWII. But that is a long
way from "All bomber pilots."

Dave

Not in Art's little world...

Jack G.

If you call WW II a "little world", what war would you call a big world? And
did you fight in it?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Bomber Pilots Never Look Down
From: "Jack G"
Date: 8/14/2004 6:07 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:



"Dave Holford" wrote in message
.. .


ArtKramr wrote:

Subject: Bomber Pilots Never Look Down
From: Robert Briggs UCKET
Date: 8/13/2004 10:09 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: 411CF5AF.A92C4F07@BITphysi

How do you justify extrapolating from one example to "bomber pilots"
in general?

Easy. All bomber pilots have one thing in common. They fly in
formation
eyes
fixed on the plane thay are formed on. No chance to look down. At
least
that is
my esperience, what is your experience?

Arthur Kramer


Might be true for B-26 pilots in the ETO during WWII. But that is a
long
way from "All bomber pilots."

Dave

Not in Art's little world...

Jack G.

If you call WW II a "little world", what war would you call a big world?
And
did you fight in it?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


Art,

I wish you could read what others post. I did not say WW II was a small
world, I said your world was very small - which it is.

Jack G.

Subject: Bomber Pilots Never Look Down
From: "Jack G"
Date: 8/14/2004 8:56 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Bomber Pilots Never Look Down
From: "Jack G"
Date: 8/14/2004 6:07 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:



"Dave Holford" wrote in message
.. .


ArtKramr wrote:

Subject: Bomber Pilots Never Look Down
From: Robert Briggs UCKET
Date: 8/13/2004 10:09 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: 411CF5AF.A92C4F07@BITphysi

How do you justify extrapolating from one example to "bomber pilots"
in general?

Easy. All bomber pilots have one thing in common. They fly in
formation
eyes
fixed on the plane thay are formed on. No chance to look down. At
least
that is
my esperience, what is your experience?

Arthur Kramer


Might be true for B-26 pilots in the ETO during WWII. But that is a
long
way from "All bomber pilots."

Dave

Not in Art's little world...

Jack G.

If you call WW II a "little world", what war would you call a big world?
And
did you fight in it?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


Art,

I wish you could read what others post. I did not say WW II was a small
world, I said your world was very small - which it is.

Jack G.


It's even smaller now.
PLONK



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Art,

I wish you could read what others post. I did not say WW II was a small
world, I said your world was very small - which it is.

Jack G.


It's even smaller now.
PLONK



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Art,

You give up far too easily.

Jack G.

"Jack G" wrote in message
...


Art,

I wish you could read what others post. I did not say WW II was a
small
world, I said your world was very small - which it is.

Jack G.


It's even smaller now.
PLONK



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Art,

You give up far too easily.

No, he doesn't; if he holds true to form, he'll be arguing with you again in
a week or so. I suspect he actually does not know how to use a message
block, as he has a long history of "plonking" folks and then responding to
them immediately afterwards. Which brings into question whether or not he
ever really knew how to use his Norden bombsite...

Brooks


Jack G.

(ArtKramr) wrote in message ...
Subject: Bomber Pilots Never Look Down
From: (buf3)
Date: 8/13/2004 3:48 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

(ArtKramr) wrote in message
...
Bomber Pilots Never Look Down

Big snip.

Interesting post. Got any more? Love
to hear 'em.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Well, I might lose my membership in the pilot's union if I tell too
many. There was the crew that was returning from Thule, Greenland to
Kincheloe, AFB, Michigan who got so far west of course that they
didn't have enough fuel to get home and had to land at Grand Forks,
ND. The RN was asleep (it was a 24 hour mission and the crew was not
augmented) and the young navigator didn't detect a bad heading error
in his equipment by cross checking other indicators. Of course, it
was a clear day and the pilots did not notice that they were on the
wrong side of Hudson Bay or over the wrong end of Lake Superior. The
poor navigator was called "Magellen" by his squadron mates for a long
time after.

Then there was the bomb/nav team that forgot to change convergance
angles when they changed maps as they turned west near the north pole.
They almost got over the USSR with six nuclear weapons (four internal
and two Hound Dogs). They had to land in Alaska because they were too
late for their second air refueling. That crew was disbanded and the
members were individually dispersed to other crews as soon as they
landed back at Kincheloe.

Gene Myers

Subject: Bomber Pilots Never Look Down
From: (buf3)
Date: 8/15/2004 11:20 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

(ArtKramr) wrote in message
...
Subject: Bomber Pilots Never Look Down
From: (buf3)
Date: 8/13/2004 3:48 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

(ArtKramr) wrote in message
...
Bomber Pilots Never Look Down

Big snip.

Interesting post. Got any more? Love
to hear 'em.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Well, I might lose my membership in the pilot's union if I tell too
many. There was the crew that was returning from Thule, Greenland to
Kincheloe, AFB, Michigan who got so far west of course that they
didn't have enough fuel to get home and had to land at Grand Forks,
ND. The RN was asleep (it was a 24 hour mission and the crew was not
augmented) and the young navigator didn't detect a bad heading error
in his equipment by cross checking other indicators. Of course, it
was a clear day and the pilots did not notice that they were on the
wrong side of Hudson Bay or over the wrong end of Lake Superior. The
poor navigator was called "Magellen" by his squadron mates for a long
time after.

Then there was the bomb/nav team that forgot to change convergance
angles when they changed maps as they turned west near the north pole.
They almost got over the USSR with six nuclear weapons (four internal
and two Hound Dogs). They had to land in Alaska because they were too
late for their second air refueling. That crew was disbanded and the
members were individually dispersed to other crews as soon as they
landed back at Kincheloe.

Gene Myers

Love it Gene. Got a story of my own wth a much sadder ending. We had hit the
target over Germany and were now heading home. We were flying deputy lead in
the high flight and I was tracing our course on my sectionals. What the f--ck!
The lead navigator was taking us right over Frankfort. There were hundreds of
88's defending Frankfurt., we would get the **** shot out of us. Well wait a
minute, I'll recheck, that can't be right.lI'll check again. Yup. We were
headed straight for Frankfort. Gotta tell him but can't break radio silence.
****, we are getting too damn close to Frank.....BOOM BOOOM BOOM BOOM. Thy sky
was fillefd with flak. One plane low and to our left took a direct hit and
burst into flame spiraling down. A second plane was hit. No chutes seen 6 more
crew lost. Then silence.We had passed overFrankfort. A nav error and 12 good
men dead. These are things that keep you awake nights for years afterword
After we landed that navigator was gone never to be seen or heard of again.
There are nav errors we can laugh about. Then there are nav errors we can
only cry about. (sigh)



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

ArtKramr wrote:
Robert Briggs wrote:

How do you justify extrapolating from one example to "bomber pilots"
in general?

Easy. All bomber pilots have one thing in common. They fly in formation
eyes fixed on the plane thay are formed on. No chance to look down.
At least that is my esperience, what is your experience?

"All bomber pilots", eh?

Sticking to your day-time B-26 raids, there must be at least one per
raid to which your argument cannot apply.

Not to mention the fact that the set of "all" bomber pilots (even in
WWII, let alone ever since the first grenade was dropped over the
side of a WWI biplane) includes Guy Gibson and Don Bennett ...

I don't need any *personal* experience to realise that yours is far
too limited to justify some of your generalisations.

Subject: Bomber Pilots Never Look Down
From: Robert Briggs UCKET
Date: 8/16/2004 10:59 AM Pac

I don't need any *personal* experience to realise that yours is far
too limited to justify some of your generalisations.

And you obviously have none. Don't like what I write? don't read it.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer