Survival Rifle

Those of you familiar with my Blog have probably read the several
articles therein about survival. And yes, I've poked a bit of fun at
those who think survival can be measured by the size of your knife.
But an on-going thread, bounced around amongst a few of use keeps
coming back to the little survival rifle/shotgun (called a 'drilling'
in gunsmith-speak) the Air Force included in their comprehensive
survival pack. As best I can recall this was a .22 Hornet rifle / .
410 shotgun that folded up. Ammunition was carried in the stock,
which was all aluminum.

The purpose of such a weapon was not defense but a means of feeding
yourself.

There are civilian versions of such over & under weapons but they are
heavy and tend to be expensive. But last night I stumbled upon what
may be a suitable substitute: A black-powder pistol. (!??)

A cap & ball pistol, typically a replica (the real thing, in good
condition, is worth thousands of dollars) is inexpensive and not very
heavy. It's also not very accurate :-) ...but hear me out before
condemning the idea.

With black-powder you pour a measured amount of powder into one of the
six chambers then insert a wad of some sort, atop which you place a
round ball, a cone shaped bullet OR A MEASURED AMOUNT OF BIRDSHOT.
Another wad is installed atop the bullet and the charge is compressed
using the lever built-in to the underside of the barrel. A percussion
cap is then installed on the nipple and you go on to the next chamber.

There are a couple of features not generally known to those who do NOT
regularly fire black-powder weapons... especially cap & ball ...that
makes this idea worthy of thought. One is that when we do away with
the cartridge case -- the brass part of the 'bullet' -- the weight &
cube of our ammunition. Fifty rounds for a black-powder weapon weighs
but a fraction of 50 rounds for a regular pistol. And since the ammo
is not made-up it does not have a prescribed shape. This allows you
to store the bullets, powder and caps in whatever space is most
convenient. Another factor is that you'll probably find shot to be
more useful than ball... yet you'll still want to keep one or two
chambers charged with ball. This presents no problem. The other four
chambers may be charged with shot, fired, then charged again, leaving
the chambers charged with ball (or with a conical bullet) undisturbed,
giving you one or two 'insurance' shots to protect yourself from the
ravages of an enraged porcupine or ptarmigan.

Firing shotgun pellets through a rifled bore does neither the bore nor
the pellets any good but given the purpose of this weapon the
traditional arguments against this kind of use have no basis.

Just a thot. Outside the box.

-R.S.Hoover

On Wed, 26 Nov 2008 15:59:28 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

The purpose of such a weapon was not defense but a means of feeding
yourself....last night I stumbled upon what
may be a suitable substitute: A black-powder pistol. (!??)

There are some pretty significant disadvantages as well. Reloading
takes time, bad weather can be a problem (the old expression "keep
your powder dry" isn't just an expression), and the knockdown/stopping
power is considerably less than a modern weapon. Then there's the
risk of chain fires if you don't slob grease over the loads.

If I'm in a survival situation, I want a gun that I can reload in a
driving rain, and KNOW that it will fire.

There are other handguns that can fire shot shells. Shot shells are
available in various pistol caliber sizes, and there are revolvers and
derringers that chamber both .45 Colt and .410 shotgun shells.

I still hold to a .22 as probably the best survival rifle. Not much
stopping power for large game (though the world record black bear was
taken with a .22!), but it's great for the small game that's more
likely to keep you fed, and _lots_ of ammo doesn't weigh much.

-Dana

--
Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine.

In article
,
" wrote:

Those of you familiar with my Blog have probably read the several
articles therein about survival. And yes, I've poked a bit of fun at
those who think survival can be measured by the size of your knife.
But an on-going thread, bounced around amongst a few of use keeps
coming back to the little survival rifle/shotgun (called a 'drilling'
in gunsmith-speak) the Air Force included in their comprehensive
survival pack. As best I can recall this was a .22 Hornet rifle / .
410 shotgun that folded up. Ammunition was carried in the stock,
which was all aluminum.

The purpose of such a weapon was not defense but a means of feeding
yourself.

There are civilian versions of such over & under weapons but they are
heavy and tend to be expensive. But last night I stumbled upon what
may be a suitable substitute: A black-powder pistol. (!??)

A cap & ball pistol, typically a replica (the real thing, in good
condition, is worth thousands of dollars) is inexpensive and not very
heavy. It's also not very accurate :-)

Some of them can be pretty accurate, at least in pistol terms, not rifle
or shotgun.

The Ruger Old Army cap and ball revolver, for example, can do pretty
well. (One of our local blackpowder club members more than once shot a
50-5x at 25yds on the pistol course. He may have been a mutant, was the
local consensus.)

Well, in someone else's hands, not mine. I could hit a squirrel (size
target) fairly consistently with an Uberti replica Colt 1861 Army. Why
I'd want to is another question, given the local ground squirrels.

...but hear me out before condemning the idea.

With black-powder you pour a measured amount of powder into one of the
six chambers then insert a wad of some sort, atop which you place a
round ball, a cone shaped bullet OR A MEASURED AMOUNT OF BIRDSHOT.
Another wad is installed atop the bullet and the charge is compressed
using the lever built-in to the underside of the barrel. A percussion
cap is then installed on the nipple and you go on to the next chamber.

There are a couple of features not generally known to those who do NOT
regularly fire black-powder weapons... especially cap & ball ...that
makes this idea worthy of thought. One is that when we do away with
the cartridge case -- the brass part of the 'bullet' -- the weight &
cube of our ammunition. Fifty rounds for a black-powder weapon weighs
but a fraction of 50 rounds for a regular pistol. And since the ammo
is not made-up it does not have a prescribed shape. This allows you
to store the bullets, powder and caps in whatever space is most
convenient. Another factor is that you'll probably find shot to be
more useful than ball... yet you'll still want to keep one or two
chambers charged with ball. This presents no problem. The other four
chambers may be charged with shot, fired, then charged again, leaving
the chambers charged with ball (or with a conical bullet) undisturbed,
giving you one or two 'insurance' shots to protect yourself from the
ravages of an enraged porcupine or ptarmigan.

Firing shotgun pellets through a rifled bore does neither the bore nor
the pellets any good but given the purpose of this weapon the
traditional arguments against this kind of use have no basis.

It might be worth trying a trade pistol with bird shot. Probably good
for grouse, or a rabbit if you're a bit lucky. They were smoothbore
pistols that were sometimes made to match a (smoothbore) tradegun,
usually a basic flintlock musket for hunting.

You can find them (or build your own) in 28, 24, or 20-gauge, and you
can also fire a patched ball (.54, .58, and .62 calibers, respectively).
They do tend to be flintlock, but there are some converted to caplock.

Those old smoothbore tradeguns must have worked pretty well, since they
were sold on the Colonial frontier from the late 1600s on, and the
Hudson's Bay company didn't quit offering them until just before WW1.

Just a thot. Outside the box.

-R.S.Hoover

Dana M. Hague wrote:

I still hold to a .22 as probably the best survival rifle. Not much
stopping power for large game (though the world record black bear was
taken with a .22!), but it's great for the small game that's more
likely to keep you fed, and _lots_ of ammo doesn't weigh much.

-Dana

Additional barrels in various calibers and shotgun gages can be bought
for NEF single shot rifles. These rifles are light and way more
accurate than the under $200 new price tag would suggest. Having
another barrel fitted (in most calibers) is under a hundred bucks.

The one caveat is no rim-fire calibers on a center-fire frames. I have
one in .223 Rem, and I'm planning to get a .22 Hornet and a .45 Colt
barrels for it. I could shoot .410 shot shells in the .45 Colt barrel
and the shot cup would keep the rifling from chewing up the shot.

This rifle with the 2 barrels and 50 rounds of ammo for each would
easily pack away behind the seat of your plane if you're flying out in
an off the grid area. Or perhaps just the .45 Colt barrel but then
you'd have to rely on .410 shotgun rounds to take squirrel sized game if
you are to stay fed until help finds you.

WWII German Luftwaffe pilots had drilling rifle/shotguns. These usually
had 2 shotgun barrels and a rifle barrel either under or over the
shotgun barrels and centered between the two. Drilling is the German
word for triple so they always had 3 barrels. The US pilots had a an
over under .22 hornet over a .410 gage shotgun. A couple companies
reproduce these but I don't think they're worth the money. Savage has
made over under rifle/shotgun combos for many years but again I think
they sell for more than they're worth.

Tony

On Nov 26, 7:51*pm, Anthony W wrote:
Dana M. Hague wrote:
I still hold to a .22 as probably the best survival rifle. *Not much
stopping power for large game (though the world record black bear was
taken with a .22!), but it's great for the small game that's more
likely to keep you fed, and _lots_ of ammo doesn't weigh much.

-Dana

Additional barrels in various calibers and shotgun gages can be bought
for NEF single shot rifles. *These rifles are light and way more
accurate than the under $200 new price tag would suggest. *Having
another barrel fitted (in most calibers) is under a hundred bucks.

The one caveat is no rim-fire calibers on a center-fire frames. *I have
one in .223 Rem, and I'm planning to get a .22 Hornet and a .45 Colt
barrels for it. *I could shoot .410 shot shells in the .45 Colt barrel
and the shot cup would keep the rifling from chewing up the shot.

This rifle with the 2 barrels and 50 rounds of ammo for each would
easily pack away behind the seat of your plane if you're flying out in
an off the grid area. *Or perhaps just the .45 Colt barrel but then
you'd have to rely on .410 shotgun rounds to take squirrel sized game if
you are to stay fed until help finds you.

WWII German Luftwaffe pilots had drilling rifle/shotguns. *These usually
had 2 shotgun barrels and a rifle barrel either under or over the
shotgun barrels and centered between the two. *Drilling is the German
word for triple so they always had 3 barrels. *The US pilots had a an
over under .22 hornet over a .410 gage shotgun. *A couple companies
reproduce these but I don't think they're worth the money. *Savage has
made over under rifle/shotgun combos for many years but again I think
they sell for more than they're worth.

Tony

Once while still young and stupid, I came into the possession of a
single action .22 revolver that was very old and rusty. When I
cleaned it up, I saw there was no rifling in the barrel. The rifling
may have just rusted away or I polished it away while cleaning it up
or it was never there in the first place - whatever.

Well, what to do with a smoothbore .22 but fire birdshot rounds with
it? I found at about 10 feet it had about a 12" pattern - not bad for
a 8" barrel. It would drive the tiny birdshot pellets about an 1/8"
into pine boards at that distance. About the only thing it was good
for was shooting desert sparrows and such. (Remember, I confessed to
young and stupid.)

I worked with the pistol until I could reliably fast-draw, cock and
fire the single action while dropping to a gunfighter stance. (At
least I sensibly kept the hammer down on an empty cylinder while in
its holster)

I had a fairly good eye and could down a flushed sparrow with better
than 50/50 odds. This got me the reputation of "El Pistolero" with
school chums who were never told it was loaded with birdshot. (Many
years later it was used to rid hangars of pigeons without blowing
holes in the roof - or in parked airplanes with ricochets.)

Survival gun? No way. This thing would have been useless for that.

On Nov 26, 8:13*pm, Dana M. Hague wrote:
On Wed, 26 Nov 2008 15:59:28 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:
The purpose of such a weapon was not defense but a means of feeding
yourself....last night I stumbled upon what
may be a suitable substitute: *A black-powder pistol. *(!??)

There are some pretty significant disadvantages as well. *Reloading
takes time, bad weather can be a problem (the old expression "keep
your powder dry" isn't just an expression), and the knockdown/stopping
power is considerably less than a modern weapon. *Then there's the
risk of chain fires if you don't slob grease over the loads.

If I'm in a survival situation, I want a gun that I can reload in a
driving rain, and KNOW that it will fire.

There are other handguns that can fire shot shells. *Shot shells are
available in various pistol caliber sizes, and there are revolvers and
derringers that chamber both .45 Colt and .410 shotgun shells.

I still hold to a .22 as probably the best survival rifle. *Not much
stopping power for large game (though the world record black bear was
taken with a .22!), but it's great for the small game that's more
likely to keep you fed, and _lots_ of ammo doesn't weigh much.

-Dana

--
Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine.
Pietenpol AirCamper

wrote:
Those of you familiar with my Blog have probably read the several
articles therein about survival. And yes, I've poked a bit of fun at
those who think survival can be measured by the size of your knife.
But an on-going thread, bounced around amongst a few of use keeps
coming back to the little survival rifle/shotgun (called a 'drilling'
in gunsmith-speak) the Air Force included in their comprehensive
survival pack.

My personal favorite for this sort of duty is the Camp Carbine...

On Nov 26, 6:59*pm, " wrote:
Those of you familiar with my Blog have probably read the several
articles therein about survival. *And yes, I've poked a bit of fun at
those who think survival can be measured by the size of your knife.
But an on-going thread, bounced around amongst a few of use keeps
coming back to the little survival rifle/shotgun (called a 'drilling'
in gunsmith-speak) the Air Force included in their comprehensive
survival pack. *As best I can recall this was a .22 *Hornet rifle / .
410 shotgun that folded up. *Ammunition was carried in the stock,
which was all aluminum.

The purpose of such a weapon was not defense but a means of feeding
yourself.

There are civilian versions of such over & under weapons but they are
heavy and tend to be expensive. *But last night I stumbled upon what
may be a suitable substitute: *A black-powder pistol. *(!??)

A cap & ball pistol, typically a replica (the real thing, in good
condition, is worth thousands of dollars) is inexpensive and not very
heavy. *It's also not very accurate :-) *...but hear me out before
condemning the idea.

With black-powder you pour a measured amount of powder into one of the
six chambers then insert a wad of some sort, atop which you place a
round ball, a cone shaped bullet OR A MEASURED AMOUNT OF BIRDSHOT.
Another wad is installed atop the bullet and the charge is compressed
using the lever built-in to the underside of the barrel. *A percussion
cap is then installed on the nipple and you go on to the next chamber.

There are a couple of features not generally known to those who do NOT
regularly fire black-powder weapons... especially cap & ball *...that
makes this idea worthy of thought. *One is that when we do away with
the cartridge case -- the brass part of the 'bullet' -- the weight &
cube of our ammunition. *Fifty rounds for a black-powder weapon weighs
but a fraction of 50 rounds for a regular pistol. *And since the ammo
is not made-up it does not have a prescribed shape. *This allows you
to store the bullets, powder and caps in whatever space is most
convenient. *Another factor is that you'll probably find shot to be
more useful than ball... yet you'll still want to keep one or two
chambers charged with ball. *This presents no problem. *The other four
chambers may be charged with shot, fired, then charged again, leaving
the chambers charged with ball (or with a conical bullet) undisturbed,
giving you one or two 'insurance' shots to protect yourself from the
ravages of an enraged porcupine or ptarmigan.

Firing shotgun pellets through a rifled bore does neither the bore nor
the pellets any good but given the purpose of this weapon the
traditional arguments against this kind of use have no basis.

Just a thot. *Outside the box.

-R.S.Hoover

Great write up again Bob.

Monk

On Nov 26, 9:51*pm, Anthony W wrote:
Dana M. Hague wrote:
I still hold to a .22 as probably the best survival rifle. *Not much
stopping power for large game (though the world record black bear was
taken with a .22!), but it's great for the small game that's more
likely to keep you fed, and _lots_ of ammo doesn't weigh much.

-Dana

Additional barrels in various calibers and shotgun gages can be bought
for NEF single shot rifles. *These rifles are light and way more
accurate than the under $200 new price tag would suggest. *Having
another barrel fitted (in most calibers) is under a hundred bucks.

The one caveat is no rim-fire calibers on a center-fire frames. *I have
one in .223 Rem, and I'm planning to get a .22 Hornet and a .45 Colt
barrels for it. *I could shoot .410 shot shells in the .45 Colt barrel
and the shot cup would keep the rifling from chewing up the shot.

This rifle with the 2 barrels and 50 rounds of ammo for each would
easily pack away behind the seat of your plane if you're flying out in
an off the grid area. *Or perhaps just the .45 Colt barrel but then
you'd have to rely on .410 shotgun rounds to take squirrel sized game if
you are to stay fed until help finds you.

WWII German Luftwaffe pilots had drilling rifle/shotguns. *These usually
had 2 shotgun barrels and a rifle barrel either under or over the
shotgun barrels and centered between the two. *Drilling is the German
word for triple so they always had 3 barrels. *The US pilots had a an
over under .22 hornet over a .410 gage shotgun. *A couple companies
reproduce these but I don't think they're worth the money. *Savage has
made over under rifle/shotgun combos for many years but again I think
they sell for more than they're worth.

Tony

I was just in Dick's Sporting goods the other day and they are having
a special on a youth break action single shot .22 with an additional .
410 or 20ga. barrel for only $89.

I'm getting one for my little daughter for Christmas.

Monk

wrote in message
...
Those of you familiar with my Blog have probably read the several
articles therein about survival. And yes, I've poked a bit of fun at
those who think survival can be measured by the size of your knife.
But an on-going thread, bounced around amongst a few of use keeps
coming back to the little survival rifle/shotgun (called a 'drilling'
in gunsmith-speak) the Air Force included in their comprehensive
survival pack. As best I can recall this was a .22 Hornet rifle / .
410 shotgun that folded up. Ammunition was carried in the stock,
which was all aluminum.

The purpose of such a weapon was not defense but a means of feeding
yourself.

There are civilian versions of such over & under weapons but they are
heavy and tend to be expensive. But last night I stumbled upon what
may be a suitable substitute: A black-powder pistol. (!??)

A cap & ball pistol, typically a replica (the real thing, in good
condition, is worth thousands of dollars) is inexpensive and not very
heavy. It's also not very accurate :-) ...but hear me out before
condemning the idea.

With black-powder you pour a measured amount of powder into one of the
six chambers then insert a wad of some sort, atop which you place a
round ball, a cone shaped bullet OR A MEASURED AMOUNT OF BIRDSHOT.
Another wad is installed atop the bullet and the charge is compressed
using the lever built-in to the underside of the barrel. A percussion
cap is then installed on the nipple and you go on to the next chamber.

There are a couple of features not generally known to those who do NOT
regularly fire black-powder weapons... especially cap & ball ...that
makes this idea worthy of thought. One is that when we do away with
the cartridge case -- the brass part of the 'bullet' -- the weight &
cube of our ammunition. Fifty rounds for a black-powder weapon weighs
but a fraction of 50 rounds for a regular pistol. And since the ammo
is not made-up it does not have a prescribed shape. This allows you
to store the bullets, powder and caps in whatever space is most
convenient. Another factor is that you'll probably find shot to be
more useful than ball... yet you'll still want to keep one or two
chambers charged with ball. This presents no problem. The other four
chambers may be charged with shot, fired, then charged again, leaving
the chambers charged with ball (or with a conical bullet) undisturbed,
giving you one or two 'insurance' shots to protect yourself from the
ravages of an enraged porcupine or ptarmigan.

Firing shotgun pellets through a rifled bore does neither the bore nor
the pellets any good but given the purpose of this weapon the
traditional arguments against this kind of use have no basis.

Just a thot. Outside the box.

-R.S.Hoover

And you can put a stock on it to increase practical accuracy without running
afoul of the Feds.

Bob (another one)