when does a "remain clear" instruction end?

Recently I was departing a small airport (with no control tower) which
was underneath the class C shelf area of a somewhat larger airport
(which is an air force base). Immediately before departing, I called
the approach controller for the class C airspace and told him that I
was departing and would like flight following. I was actually hoping
to fly straight over the larger airport (they weren't busy due to the
time). The approach controller assigned me a transponder code and
told me "after departure remain clear of the class C airspace". So
after I took of, I started flying a route taking me around the class C
area that extended to the surface. Well, the controller then called
me by my tail number and asked some questions (I don't remember
exactly what -- it might have been my expected cruising altitude and
aircraft type, I think he may have also said radar contact, although I
can't remember the specifics right now). As soon as this happened, I
turned and headed directly toward my destination, taking me across the
class C to the surface airspace. A fellow pilot was with me, and he
later mentioned that thought I might have violated the controller's
instructions. Hmmmm... That brings up a question --- when does the
"remain clear of class C airspace" instruction end? I figured that
since he called my by tail number and was clearly communicating with
me and didn't assign any vectors or repeat his direction to remain
clear, that it was now understood that I could enter. The controller
didn't give any indication that I had done anything wrong, but I want
to be sure that I understand this for the future. So ... if I'm told
to remain clear in the future, WHEN does that end?

Thank-you.

"Arden Prinz" wrote in message

.......That brings up a question --- when does the
"remain clear of class C airspace" instruction end?

...I figured that
since he called my by tail number and was clearly communicating with
me and didn't assign any vectors or repeat his direction to remain
clear, that it was now understood that I could enter.

When you're talking about airspace entry, etc., pilot/controller interaction
is *never* "understood", or "presumed". Clear and direct statements are
used.

The controller
didn't give any indication that I had done anything wrong, but I want
to be sure that I understand this for the future. So ... if I'm told
to remain clear in the future, WHEN does that end?

When you hear the phrase '....cleared to enter...', or '....cleared
into...', or some such. The "remain clear" instruction is so that you don't
come barging into the class C immediately after takeoff, before the
controller has a chance to identify and coordinate you. He probably didn't
make an issue of it because he was about to clear you to turn in anyway
[speculation on my part.].

The basic thrust of your analysis is correct for most controlled airspace,
John; but the clinker in the ashes here is that when a class C controller
calls your tail number, it is per the rules THE permission to enter unless
he specifically instructs you to remain clear...
What the AIM does not make it clear is that after being told to stand clear,
any subsequent tail number call, and especially with a phrase like, 'radar
contact established', barometer setting, etc., is clearance to enter per the
rule unless he repeats the instruction to remain clear, or assigns you a
heading, etc.. A point the FAA ought to clarify... I would, like you,
prefer that the AIM require the controller to say, ". . . cleared . . . " It
does not, that I can find...
denny

"John Gaquin" wrote in When you hear the phrase
'....cleared to enter...', or '....cleared
into...', or some such.

"Dennis O'Connor" wrote in message

.....when a class C controller
calls your tail number, it is per the rules THE permission to enter unless
he specifically instructs you to remain clear...

I stand corrected. I didn't (and still don't) recall that detail, but then
again, I never flew anything but IFR after about 1982. Doesn't sound like
it makes much sense, to me, but if that's what's written.....

"Dennis O'Connor" wrote in message
...

The basic thrust of your analysis is correct for most controlled airspace,
John; but the clinker in the ashes here is that when a class C controller
calls your tail number, it is per the rules THE permission to enter unless
he specifically instructs you to remain clear...
What the AIM does not make it clear is that after being told to stand
clear,
any subsequent tail number call, and especially with a phrase like, 'radar
contact established', barometer setting, etc., is clearance to enter per
the
rule unless he repeats the instruction to remain clear, or assigns you a
heading, etc..


The reason the AIM doesn't say that is because that's not the way it is.
Once told to remain clear you must remain clear until receipt of an
instruction that permits entry.

In article et,
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

The reason the AIM doesn't say that is because that's not the way it is.
Once told to remain clear you must remain clear until receipt of an
instruction that permits entry.


The O.P. stated that after recieving a beacon code and being told to
remain clear the controller then called him back and asked some
questions. That sounds like he was setting up a progress strip for VFR
advisories for him. He said he thought the controller also may have
acknowleged radar contact. I think an acknowlegement of radar contact
would then permit entry to Class C. All you need to enter Class C is a
Mode C transponder and two-way radio communications. You do not need to
be "cleared into" Class C.

Would you not agree?

"Tom Fleischman" wrote in message
rthlink.net...

The O.P. stated that after recieving a beacon code and being told to
remain clear the controller then called him back and asked some
questions. That sounds like he was setting up a progress strip for VFR
advisories for him. He said he thought the controller also may have
acknowleged radar contact. I think an acknowlegement of radar contact
would then permit entry to Class C. All you need to enter Class C is a
Mode C transponder and two-way radio communications. You do not
need to be "cleared into" Class C.

Would you not agree?


"Radar contact" does not override the instruction to remain clear of the
Class C airspace.

time). The approach controller assigned me a transponder code and
told me "after departure remain clear of the class C airspace".

Lol - in my experience, either the airspace is too busy - or you sound like
you could be a nuisance.

. Well, the controller then called
me by my tail number and asked some questions (I don't remember
exactly what -- it might have been my expected cruising altitude and
aircraft type,

If you didn't automatically give him all that right after establishing
contact with him (assuming him), then maybe that's why he didn't want to be
bothered by you. I can just hear the controllers sigh when someone gets on
and says "podunk approach, november 12345, would like flight following" and
then the game of 20 questions starts.

to be sure that I understand this for the future. So ... if I'm told
to remain clear in the future, WHEN does that end?

When you explicitly get permission to enter.

"John Harlow"
time). The approach controller assigned me a transponder code and
told me "after departure remain clear of the class C airspace".

Lol - in my experience, either the airspace is too busy - or you sound
like
you could be a nuisance.

Sounds like it could have been a standard instruction for any a/c on the
ground calling in before departure. Not clear anyone is a nuisance or that
there is *any* traffic. Local practices vary.


. Well, the controller then called
me by my tail number and asked some questions (I don't remember
exactly what -- it might have been my expected cruising altitude and
aircraft type,

If you didn't automatically give him all that right after establishing
contact with him (assuming him), then maybe that's why he didn't want to
be
bothered by you. I can just hear the controllers sigh when someone gets
on
and says "podunk approach, november 12345, would like flight following"
and
then the game of 20 questions starts.

Did the controller contact the pilot after departure before the pilot called
himself?

to be sure that I understand this for the future. So ... if I'm told
to remain clear in the future, WHEN does that end?

When you explicitly get permission to enter.

.... or in this Class C situation, after announcing my intent to proceed
direct on course thru the Class C. I would consider any acknowledgement of
the call that did not include a "remain clear" to be sufficient to proceed
on course. That's not how I would do it, but I think that would be ok.

I'm thinking that it may be local practice to instruct any pilot on the
ground to remain clear of the Class C. Once in the air, the normal Class C
procedures would apply. Which would mean once contact is established, entry
would be permitted subject to any instruction to the contrary. But since a
remain clear had already been issued, I too would want explicit permission
to enter.

"John Harlow" wrote:

time). The approach controller assigned me a transponder code and
told me "after departure remain clear of the class C airspace".

Lol - in my experience, either the airspace is too busy - or you sound like
you could be a nuisance.

No, I get that instruction all the time, transitioning from PDX's two
close-in airports (Evergreen and Pearson). They issue a transponder
code, instruct you to remain clear until identified, and contact on
another frequency when airborne.

Rob