Soaring Community Consumer Warning

On 3/22/2013 6:30 AM, John Carlyle wrote:
Add my voice to that of Hank, Chip, Herb and Mark. Tim has worked
hard to make Wings & Wheels THE place to sell gliders, and he does it
to try to get more business. Duplicating your ad elsewhere is an
attack on his model. If you want the best exposure to sell your
glider, swallow your pride and make nice with Tim.

Tim still does not list his requirement the ad for your glider be
exclusively with him. The only requirement I see is this one, written in
red and underlined:

"I only ask that you please send notice when your sailplane, trailer,
airplane or part has been sold or your wanted ad is no longer needed."

Given the lack of warning about Tim's requirements for exclusivity (and
perhaps letting his business interests interfere with his civility), I
suggest he immediately and prominently post those requirements, then
contact BobD with something like this: "My bad for not informing you of
the situation. I'll be glad to repost your ad until you sell your
glider. Please let me know at your convenience."

Should Tim make such an offer, I hope BobD will accept it graciously,
and allow the ad to be reposted.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

On Saturday, March 23, 2013 1:01:51 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 3/22/2013 6:30 AM, John Carlyle wrote:

Add my voice to that of Hank, Chip, Herb and Mark. Tim has worked

hard to make Wings & Wheels THE place to sell gliders, and he does it

to try to get more business. Duplicating your ad elsewhere is an

attack on his model. If you want the best exposure to sell your

glider, swallow your pride and make nice with Tim.



Tim still does not list his requirement the ad for your glider be

exclusively with him. The only requirement I see is this one, written in

red and underlined:



"I only ask that you please send notice when your sailplane, trailer,

airplane or part has been sold or your wanted ad is no longer needed."



Given the lack of warning about Tim's requirements for exclusivity (and

perhaps letting his business interests interfere with his civility), I

suggest he immediately and prominently post those requirements, then

contact BobD with something like this: "My bad for not informing you of

the situation. I'll be glad to repost your ad until you sell your

glider. Please let me know at your convenience."



Should Tim make such an offer, I hope BobD will accept it graciously,

and allow the ad to be reposted.



--

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to

email me)

Eric: I would gladly do so.

No Chip, I'm not hitting below the belt. Hanging up on me when I was trying to have an understanding led to this. Trying to sell my glider and NOT informing me before hand until well after I posted on SoaringCafe hurts the entire community in spite of his store offerings and past services. I understand his right to policy, but read Eric's post.

The other's a just posers. W&W is where the gliders get sold.

UH

WOW UH. "The others are just posers"... what an unhealthy position that is for our sport. In case you haven't noticed, this is the United States, where free enterprise competition exists for the benefit of the end-user. Me: I'm just trying to sell my glider and stay vibrant in this sport. What's stupid is Tim asked me when I placed my ad what I was getting. I told him a Jonker JS-1C. 3 months later he comes back to bully me into pulling my "for sale" ad off SoaringCafe instead of saying "Hey Bob, hope your ad on my site is getting you prospects. Keep me in mind for your new glider needs such as panel instruments, waxes etc." Now that won't happen, will it?

Nope--that wasn't the message I got. I got the Soviet Union instead--my way or the highway. Again: Is this how YOU would treat past, loyal customers? Is this how you help the sport prosper? I understand the issue of competition as with my business.

Read the previous post: he does this to others. How detrimental to the sport.

If it's important for you to have your ad on Tim's site - comply with what he offers. It's free, it's his site. You don't like it - go somewhere else. Simple.
But obviously you see the value of having your glider advertised for sale on his site, otherwise you wouldn't make such a fuss...

Originally Posted by BobD

The other's a just posers. W&W is where the gliders get sold.

UH

WOW UH. "The others are just posers"... what an unhealthy position that is for our sport. In case you haven't noticed, this is the United States, where free enterprise competition exists for the benefit of the end-user. Me: I'm just trying to sell my glider and stay vibrant in this sport. What's stupid is Tim asked me when I placed my ad what I was getting. I told him a Jonker JS-1C. 3 months later he comes back to bully me into pulling my "for sale" ad off SoaringCafe instead of saying "Hey Bob, hope your ad on my site is getting you prospects. Keep me in mind for your new glider needs such as panel instruments, waxes etc." Now that won't happen, will it?

Nope--that wasn't the message I got. I got the Soviet Union instead--my way or the highway. Again: Is this how YOU would treat past, loyal customers? Is this how you help the sport prosper? I understand the issue of competition as with my business.

Read the previous post: he does this to others. How detrimental to the sport.

Apparently they feel entitled as potential customers of a free service
to dictate the terms of service, and then be vocal in abusing the
service provider.

And I know this was supposedly triggered by Tim putting the phone down
on the person presuming to do this. The more I see and hear the more I
sympathise with that decision.

On 2013/04/11 5:51 PM, robertsmits wrote:

If it's important for you to have your ad on Tim's site - comply with
what he offers. It's free, it's his site. You don't like it - go
somewhere else. Simple.
But obviously you see the value of having your glider advertised for
sale on his site, otherwise you wouldn't make such a fuss...



BobD;835471 Wrote:
The other's a just posers. W&W is where the gliders get sold.-

UH-

WOW UH. "The others are just posers"... what an unhealthy position that
is for our sport. In case you haven't noticed, this is the United
States, where free enterprise competition exists for the benefit of the
end-user. Me: I'm just trying to sell my glider and stay vibrant in this
sport. What's stupid is Tim asked me when I placed my ad what I was
getting. I told him a Jonker JS-1C. 3 months later he comes back to
bully me into pulling my "for sale" ad off SoaringCafe instead of saying
"Hey Bob, hope your ad on my site is getting you prospects. Keep me in
mind for your new glider needs such as panel instruments, waxes etc."
Now that won't happen, will it?

Nope--that wasn't the message I got. I got the Soviet Union instead--my
way or the highway. Again: Is this how YOU would treat past, loyal
customers? Is this how you help the sport prosper? I understand the
issue of competition as with my business.

Read the previous post: he does this to others. How detrimental to the
sport.





--
Bruce Greeff
T59D #1771

I used to think that the Wings and Wheels site was "the" site for
soaring classifieds and everything else was - at best - its subset.

In light of the information found in this thread, it appears that the
other sites _are_ worth checking, as ads that are posted there are
unlikely to be found on Tim's site.

So, there's soaringcafe.com, glidersource.com... anything else?

Bart

I agree, a business owner has a right to place whatever restrictions he likes on his services. A business decision of course, and as an owner of a service company (no, mot making MKIV's and QV's) one I understand . . . though one I'd personally make differently.

It's kind of like if a business owner said, "If you want to do business with me, you have to sign my 'exclusivity agreement' promising not to do business with anyone else for the products and services I offer". Does the owner have a right to do that? Sure! Good business? Not so much. One might get away with it for a while if they have an exclusive, single source product . .. . but it's not really in keeping with the principals that make capitalism such a great system. In the end, it's bound to aggravate some customers and maybe turn some away.

Better that customer loyalty be earned through surprisingly excellent service and good value. Coercion shouldn't have a place in this.

I imagine it's not easy making a living with an unseemly group like glider pilots as one's only customers, so I have deep appreciation for all the honest and hardworking businesses that strive to serve us while keeping their families fed at the same time. Gotta be a labor of love.

bumper
MKIV & QV

Another installment in the great soaring classified ad wars. Who will
corner the market for hosting free ads serving a dwindling niche
market, in the process capturing literally hundreds of page views per
month? As Sayre's law says, the conflict is bitter only because the
stakes are so small.

Bob,

Email me off group and I believe that I can give you some insight on this issue.

nov44bv (the usual stuff at the biggest search engine email service)


On Thursday, March 21, 2013 7:34:09 AM UTC-7, BobD wrote:
I like many others understand that the glider community is small, and perhaps getting smaller. In trying to sell my glider, I placed an ad on Tim Mara's Wings and Wheels. He states on his website that he offers this for free to help the community. Or so I thought.



Selling a glider is a difficult task, especially in this economy and to a niche interest group. As for me, I'm buying a new glider and need funding from the sale of my present ship. I do all this on a tight budget. So letting the soaring community know about my offering is a marketing effort of importance and I know that to be successful, I need to cover the bases. Not everyone will see an ad in one given location. Coverage is the issue.



I've placed the same advertising offering on SoaringCafe.com's marketplace page. I used the same information there as I did on Wings and Wheels. I've also put the same details here on RAS, and I will likely put them on the SSA paid website marketing pages and anywhere else I feel is appropriate for seeking buyers. I simply want to sell my glider.



I've been a customer of Tim's and have spent a lot of money with his enterprise. Which is why I was stunned when he emailed me back saying I cannot duplicate my ad on SoaringCafe and he would pull mine off Wings and Wheels if I didn't discontinue the SoaringCafe ad. His message was "I don't allow it"...period.



Why would someone who should know the value of a customer, and the small scale of our community, do that? Anyone know why? When I called him he was indignant and said the policy was in his reply email to me AFTER the ad went up. Such a policy is not stated ANYWHERE on his website. It makes no sense since SoaringCafe is not in competition with Wings and Wheels other than advertising other vendors, who pay for that visibility. SoaringCafe's web presence it different.



Tim notified me yesterday that the ad was being removed since I hadn't complied with his demand (24 hours after making it). In calling him to discuss it, he was indignant with me, refused to listen, and hung up. Nice going Tim, you just lost a customer who will now exercise his consumer rights and inform the community of your detrimental decision that undermines my effort to sell my glider. And yes, I will use the internet bully pulpit to let the community know of your attitude towards that community. Hats of to SoaringCafe and goodbye to Wings and Wheels. Honoring and valuing your customers doesn't seem to be in Tim's business plan. I can't think of a worse business attitude.



Beware soaring community of those who make it tough on you…like hanging up on you and not listening. Instead, patronize those who go the extra mile and work with you.



Bob DeLeon

Glider pilot and owner since 1997

cannot duplicate my ad on SoaringCafe and he would pull mine off Wings
and Wheels.

Interestingly, the ad for C-GEST on W&W has been duplicated on SAC.ca for
months.

Not much concern for what goes on in Canada?
Cheers ...Jock