"Joy of Soaring" Book

On Sep 6, 12:41*am, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 9/5/2011 11:31 AM, Brad wrote:

On Sep 5, 11:24 am, *wrote:
The SSA has recently mailed a letter to the membership regarding the
continuing unacceptable accident rate. Studies have shown one of the
primary reasons for a high accident rate is a fundemental lack of
knowledge. The Joy of Soaring was written as a simple coffee table
book. It was never designed to be a flight training manual.

Tom Knauff

30 years ago my instructor at Issaquah Soaring sold me a copy of this
book...............30 years later and a few thousand hours of flight
time and I'm still accident free......maybe it's not the book?

I'm sure the SSA had every intention it would serve as a flight training
book, as did the author. Like Brad, I'm at 30 years and a few thousand
hours later, and I also used it as a manual for many years as a CFIG.
It's probably not the best choice now, but it was a good choice then.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

I loved Joy of Soaring 25 years ago, don't particularly like seeing it
slagged off here either.

It taught the simple subject of basic stick and rudder airmanship to
this student, quite well. I'm quite confident in saying that if a
student masters the basics as presented in Joy of Soaring, and sticks
to them, they won't crash.

I'm not buying "fundamental lack of knowledge" just yet, either. It
doesn't square up with my personal observations. Whose studies?
Published where?

-Evan Ludeman / T8

On Sep 6, 3:57*am, T8 wrote:
On Sep 6, 12:41*am, Eric Greenwell wrote:









On 9/5/2011 11:31 AM, Brad wrote:

On Sep 5, 11:24 am, *wrote:
The SSA has recently mailed a letter to the membership regarding the
continuing unacceptable accident rate. Studies have shown one of the
primary reasons for a high accident rate is a fundemental lack of
knowledge. The Joy of Soaring was written as a simple coffee table
book. It was never designed to be a flight training manual.

Tom Knauff

30 years ago my instructor at Issaquah Soaring sold me a copy of this
book...............30 years later and a few thousand hours of flight
time and I'm still accident free......maybe it's not the book?

I'm sure the SSA had every intention it would serve as a flight training
book, as did the author. Like Brad, I'm at 30 years and a few thousand
hours later, and I also used it as a manual for many years as a CFIG.
It's probably not the best choice now, but it was a good choice then.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

I loved Joy of Soaring 25 years ago, don't particularly like seeing it
slagged off here either.

It taught the simple subject of basic stick and rudder airmanship to
this student, quite well. *I'm quite confident in saying that *if a
student masters the basics as presented in Joy of Soaring, and sticks
to them, they won't crash.

I'm not buying "fundamental lack of knowledge" just yet, either. *It
doesn't square up with my personal observations. *Whose studies?
Published where?

-Evan Ludeman / T8

What worries me more are the folks that claim soaring simulators like
Condor do a great job of prepping pilots for a variety of conditions.
I have never used it, but I can't see how it in any way can prepare a
pilot for a windy day up against a rock wall in windy thermal
conditions. I'm sure the book "Joy of Soaring" mentions something
about flying in these conditions and what to look for, but I can't
imagine anyone actually flying in those conditions would be up there
because they read how to do it in that book, conversely, after parking
in front of a simulator for a few hours there might be some pilots who
feel they are ready to head out and give it a try.

Brad

On Sep 6, 3:57*am, T8 wrote:
On Sep 6, 12:41*am, Eric Greenwell wrote:





On 9/5/2011 11:31 AM, Brad wrote:

On Sep 5, 11:24 am, *wrote:
The SSA has recently mailed a letter to the membership regarding the
continuing unacceptable accident rate. Studies have shown one of the
primary reasons for a high accident rate is a fundemental lack of
knowledge. The Joy of Soaring was written as a simple coffee table
book. It was never designed to be a flight training manual.

Tom Knauff

30 years ago my instructor at Issaquah Soaring sold me a copy of this
book...............30 years later and a few thousand hours of flight
time and I'm still accident free......maybe it's not the book?

I'm sure the SSA had every intention it would serve as a flight training
book, as did the author. Like Brad, I'm at 30 years and a few thousand
hours later, and I also used it as a manual for many years as a CFIG.
It's probably not the best choice now, but it was a good choice then.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

I loved Joy of Soaring 25 years ago, don't particularly like seeing it
slagged off here either.

It taught the simple subject of basic stick and rudder airmanship to
this student, quite well. *I'm quite confident in saying that *if a
student masters the basics as presented in Joy of Soaring, and sticks
to them, they won't crash.

I'm not buying "fundamental lack of knowledge" just yet, either. *It
doesn't square up with my personal observations. *Whose studies?
Published where?

-Evan Ludeman / T8

Accidents happen due to human nature to make mistakes, NOT due to
fundamental lack of knowledge! None of the accidents I am familiar
with were due to lack of knowledge. Just look at the statistics. Most
accidents, especially this year, happened to very experienced pilots,
commercial pilots and CFIG!
Writing more books will not change that. Discussing accidents such as
on RAS is more effective than books IMHO.

Ramy

Ramy

Ramy

On Sep 6, 8:12*am, Brad wrote:
On Sep 6, 3:57*am, T8 wrote:









On Sep 6, 12:41*am, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 9/5/2011 11:31 AM, Brad wrote:

On Sep 5, 11:24 am, *wrote:
The SSA has recently mailed a letter to the membership regarding the
continuing unacceptable accident rate. Studies have shown one of the
primary reasons for a high accident rate is a fundemental lack of
knowledge. The Joy of Soaring was written as a simple coffee table
book. It was never designed to be a flight training manual.

Tom Knauff

30 years ago my instructor at Issaquah Soaring sold me a copy of this
book...............30 years later and a few thousand hours of flight
time and I'm still accident free......maybe it's not the book?

I'm sure the SSA had every intention it would serve as a flight training
book, as did the author. Like Brad, I'm at 30 years and a few thousand
hours later, and I also used it as a manual for many years as a CFIG.
It's probably not the best choice now, but it was a good choice then.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

I loved Joy of Soaring 25 years ago, don't particularly like seeing it
slagged off here either.

It taught the simple subject of basic stick and rudder airmanship to
this student, quite well. *I'm quite confident in saying that *if a
student masters the basics as presented in Joy of Soaring, and sticks
to them, they won't crash.

I'm not buying "fundamental lack of knowledge" just yet, either. *It
doesn't square up with my personal observations. *Whose studies?
Published where?

-Evan Ludeman / T8

What worries me more are the folks that claim soaring simulators like
Condor do a great job of prepping pilots for a variety of conditions.
I have never used it, but I can't see how it in any way can prepare a
pilot for a windy day up against a rock wall in windy thermal
conditions. I'm sure the book "Joy of Soaring" mentions something
about flying in these conditions and what to look for, but I can't
imagine anyone actually flying in those conditions would be up there
because they read how to do it in that book, conversely, after parking
in front of a simulator for a few hours there might be some pilots who
feel they are ready to head out and give it a try.

Brad

Condor flight simulator is a huge asset to any instructor who chooses
to use it with students. The key to success is not the sim, it's the
instructor. There are few situations which cannot be accurately
simulated and a good instructor can work through them with a student
to good effect.

The the airplane world, simulators have proven a huge asset. However,
they are always used with an instructor at the console setting up
realistic scenarios. Students are rarely left on their own to learn
with a simulator.

On Sep 5, 12:24*pm, Tom wrote:
The SSA has recently mailed a letter to the membership regarding the
continuing unacceptable accident rate. Studies have shown one of the
primary reasons for a high accident rate is a fundemental lack of
knowledge. The Joy of Soaring was written as a simple coffee table
book. It was never designed to be a flight training manual.

Tom Knauff

Right on all points.

Bill Daniels

On Sep 6, 2:37*pm, Bill D wrote:
On Sep 5, 12:24*pm, Tom wrote:

The SSA has recently mailed a letter to the membership regarding the
continuing unacceptable accident rate. Studies have shown one of the
primary reasons for a high accident rate is a fundemental lack of
knowledge. The Joy of Soaring was written as a simple coffee table
book. It was never designed to be a flight training manual.

Tom Knauff

Right on all points.

Bill Daniels

I always found any knowledge is a good thing, the Joy of Soaring is a
wonderful place to start and expand on from it's basic concepts,
speaking for myself I am/was no Chuck Yeager and anything I can learn
from is welcomed..

On 9/6/2011 1:08 PM, ray conlon wrote:
On Sep 6, 2:37 pm, Bill wrote:
On Sep 5, 12:24 pm, wrote:

The SSA has recently mailed a letter to the membership regarding the
continuing unacceptable accident rate. Studies have shown one of the
primary reasons for a high accident rate is a fundemental lack of
knowledge. The Joy of Soaring was written as a simple coffee table
book. It was never designed to be a flight training manual.

Tom Knauff

Right on all points.

Bill Daniels

I always found any knowledge is a good thing, the Joy of Soaring is a
wonderful place to start and expand on from it's basic concepts,
speaking for myself I am/was no Chuck Yeager and anything I can learn
from is welcomed..

"What Ray said."

N.B.: I greatly respect Tom Knauff's opinions regarding instruction
methodologies, the importance of the law of primacy, which books do a
better/not-so-good job presenting the basics, etc. Why?

Quantity of students instructed-to-license:
Tom Knauff - Lots, over 3+ decades.
Me - Zero.

That said, and with a nod to the law of primacy's power over what Tom calls
the reptilian part of our brain (which Tom argues takes over in moments of
great stress), the rational part of my brain genuinely struggles with the
precept that 'proper training' in conjunction with 'accurate self-generated
continuing analyses' are INcapable of overcoming the law of primacy.

In a nutshell, that's what (any) training is all about.

In other words, even if a person has - for whatever reason and in whatever
manner - managed to initially learn some
bad/incorrect/potentially-life-threatening information prior to obtaining
'Knauff-worthy' instruction on the matter, I'm inclined to believe that the
new information can indeed permanently and successfully replace the
old/bad/incorrect information...even in moments of great stress.

For example, consider stalls. I dare say some measurable percentage of
existing glider pilots once thought pulling back on the stick was 'the thing
to do,' even if only when 10 years old. I also believe it's possible for this
bad information to be 'trained out of wannabe pilots.' It may take more time,
and it's probably the wise instructor who tends to probe new-to-them,
ab-initio students' concepts of certain potentially life-threatening
situations/ideas/concepts (e.g. stalls - what they are and what to do about
incipient ones). In any event, I'd expect some insightful (aka 'sneaky')
instruction to see if said student really *has* absorbed the correct idea(s)
and applies 'em when immediately necessary; in hindsight, I realized my
instructor did precisely this. Consequently I tend to think it's somewhat
misguided thinking to hold 'bad == *initial* == ideas' up as the primary
contributor to the U.S. soaring community's dismal safety record of the past
two summers.

That's not to suggest some misguided thinking has NOT contributed, though.

Hence, "What Ray said." Information is good. Prior bogus 'knowledge' (may?
can? might?) make it more difficult to retrain us, but should not make it
impossible to do so.

Bob W.

P.S. I rather enjoyed "The Joy of Soaring" when it was loaned to me way back
in 1972 when I got into the sport, because I inhaled anything I could get my
hands on regarding soaring and flight. I never felt it hurt me in any
way...nor did I ever imagine it was the end all and be all in written soaring
flight instruction.

On Sep 6, 2:37*pm, Bill D wrote:
On Sep 5, 12:24*pm, Tom wrote:

The SSA has recently mailed a letter to the membership regarding the
continuing unacceptable accident rate. Studies have shown one of the
primary reasons for a high accident rate is a fundemental lack of
knowledge. The Joy of Soaring was written as a simple coffee table
book. It was never designed to be a flight training manual.

Tom Knauff

Right on all points.

Bill Daniels

Again: Whose studies? Published Where?

From the title page "The Joy of Soaring -- A Training Manual"

From the Forward

"...As part of the preparation of this manual, its authors visited
numerous gliding schools from coast to coast in order to ensure that
the text represented the best practices of commercial and club schools
as well as to hear the ideas of many prominent soaring pilots....."
etc. etc. written by Harner Selvidge, SSA training manual project
manager.

From the Acknowledgements:

"This training manual had its genesis in a suggestion by Mrs.
Catherine Hiller, SSA governor of Mass. As a member of the FAA
Women's Advisory Committee for Aeronautics she proposed that FAA
publish a glider training manual similar to the one they have for
power pilots, and that it be prepared for FAA by SSA... SSA undertook
the complete job of preparation and publishing on its own.

The real authors of this manual are the operators and instructors of
the following schools and clubs as well as other individual pilots who
gave so generously of their time and experience to make this manual
possible and even authoritative...."

Okay, so I think we can dispense with the notion that Joy of Soaring
was not intended to be flight training manual.

I still want to know what objective study has been done and published
that supports the claim that pilots are crashing due to "fundamental
lack of knowledge". This is a serious subject, it deserves better
than sweeping statements without backing and opinion asserted as fact.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

"T8" wrote in message
...
I still want to know what objective study has been done and published
that supports the claim that pilots are crashing due to "fundamental
lack of knowledge". This is a serious subject, it deserves better
than sweeping statements without backing and opinion asserted as fact.

And I would like to see the logical "dotted line" from this particular book to
our (admittedly terrible) accident rate.

....because I have yet to see where one has anything to do with the other.

Vaughn

"Brad" wrote in message
...
On Sep 5, 11:24 am, Tom wrote:
The SSA has recently mailed a letter to the membership regarding the
continuing unacceptable accident rate. Studies have shown one of the
primary reasons for a high accident rate is a fundemental lack of
knowledge. The Joy of Soaring was written as a simple coffee table
book. It was never designed to be a flight training manual.

Tom Knauff

30 years ago my instructor at Issaquah Soaring sold me a copy of this
book...............30 years later and a few thousand hours of flight
time and I'm still accident free......maybe it's not the book?

Brad

BINGO!

Dan