Q: Buddy store internal fuel?

In article ,
"Mike Kanze" writes:
Peter's calculations are a reminder that it is the weight that counts, not
the gallonage. And more specifically, how many BTUs/pound you can get from
your fuel choice (more = better, usually). This is why the world has never
seen a commercially-viable coal-fueled aircraft, old Aeroflot jokes
notwithstanding.

Just so. All hydrocarbon fuels have about the same energy content -
something around 18,000 BTU/lb. Since the jet's fuel controller is
figuring stuff out by the amount of heat produced, it just stuffs the
fuel in until it's hot enough.
Early on, the Navy ran their jets on AVGAS. The carriers already had
bunkerage for that, and they didn't need to add a new supply chain -
that meant modifying not only the carrier's internals, but also the
tankers and replenishment ships that fed them. There were a few
problems though. AVGAS has a desity of 'bout 6.0 lbs/U.S. Gallon.
JP-4 (Jet-B) is about 6.5 lbs/gal, and JP-5 (JET-A) is about 6.7 -
that means that an AVGAS powered jet is going to have 90% of the range
of the same airplane burning Kerosine. Casoline's a much more serious
fire/explosion hazard. The high lead content of 115/145 AVGAS also
played hell with the burners and turbine section.
Biting the bullet, and switching to JP-5 was a big win. Especially
since you could run the ship's boilers on JP-5 as well, giving you a
lot more bunkerage, and a single supply line.

There were a number of tricks played in the early days of jets to
increase the density of fuel - a favorite, used in the jet
cross-country attempts in the early 1950s (Bendix races, * such) was
to put cans of Dry Ice into the fuel tankers used to refuel the jets
at their intermeddiate stops. The chilled fuel was more dense, and
you'd squeeze just enough extra Cubic BTUs into the tanks that it
would essentially make up for the fuel used for takeoff.


--
Pete Stickney

Without data, all you have are opinions

Peter,

Thanks for the additional perspective.

I recall seeing a photo long ago of a P2V-1 (?) being fueled for a very long
range flight. The fuel lines from the bowser to the aircraft were all packed
in dry ice for the same reason.

--
Mike Kanze

"One phrase that no Member of Congress should ever use lightly is 'political
hack.' The ironic possibilities are too rich."

- Wall Street Journal (3/7/05)




"Peter Stickney" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Mike Kanze" writes:
Peter's calculations are a reminder that it is the weight that counts,
not
the gallonage. And more specifically, how many BTUs/pound you can get
from
your fuel choice (more = better, usually). This is why the world has
never
seen a commercially-viable coal-fueled aircraft, old Aeroflot jokes
notwithstanding.

Just so. All hydrocarbon fuels have about the same energy content -
something around 18,000 BTU/lb. Since the jet's fuel controller is
figuring stuff out by the amount of heat produced, it just stuffs the
fuel in until it's hot enough.
Early on, the Navy ran their jets on AVGAS. The carriers already had
bunkerage for that, and they didn't need to add a new supply chain -
that meant modifying not only the carrier's internals, but also the
tankers and replenishment ships that fed them. There were a few
problems though. AVGAS has a desity of 'bout 6.0 lbs/U.S. Gallon.
JP-4 (Jet-B) is about 6.5 lbs/gal, and JP-5 (JET-A) is about 6.7 -
that means that an AVGAS powered jet is going to have 90% of the range
of the same airplane burning Kerosine. Casoline's a much more serious
fire/explosion hazard. The high lead content of 115/145 AVGAS also
played hell with the burners and turbine section.
Biting the bullet, and switching to JP-5 was a big win. Especially
since you could run the ship's boilers on JP-5 as well, giving you a
lot more bunkerage, and a single supply line.

There were a number of tricks played in the early days of jets to
increase the density of fuel - a favorite, used in the jet
cross-country attempts in the early 1950s (Bendix races, * such) was
to put cans of Dry Ice into the fuel tankers used to refuel the jets
at their intermeddiate stops. The chilled fuel was more dense, and
you'd squeeze just enough extra Cubic BTUs into the tanks that it
would essentially make up for the fuel used for takeoff.


--
Pete Stickney

Without data, all you have are opinions

"Mike Kanze" wrote:

Peter,

Thanks for the additional perspective.

I recall seeing a photo long ago of a P2V-1 (?) being fueled for a very long
range flight. The fuel lines from the bowser to the aircraft were all packed
in dry ice for the same reason.

Yes, that was the Truculent Turtle and 'was' a P2V-1. it flew
from New Zealand (?) to somewhere in the States...
--

-Gord.
(use gordon in email)

In article , l (Peter
Stickney) wrote:

There were a number of tricks played in the early days of jets to
increase the density of fuel - a favorite, used in the jet
cross-country attempts in the early 1950s (Bendix races, * such) was
to put cans of Dry Ice into the fuel tankers used to refuel the jets
at their intermeddiate stops. The chilled fuel was more dense, and
you'd squeeze just enough extra Cubic BTUs into the tanks that it
would essentially make up for the fuel used for takeoff.

The same trick is used for Russian Soyuz booster rockets which are
kerosene and liquid oxygen. It doesn't add much performance, but with
satellite launchers, something cheap that stays on the ground is welcome.

---
John Dallman, , HTML mail is treated as probable spam.

In 1957 our North American Fury FJ-4Bs were equipped with buddy stores. The
right wing drop tank carried the basket, hose, reel, valves, switches, etc.
and the left wing drop tank carried just fuel and valves.

WDA

end

"Guy Alcala" wrote in message
. ..
I was just wondering if any buddy stores carried internal
fuel,or if all the internal space was taken up by the
drogue, hose and reel, pump, etc. I have conflicting
sources, so hopefully those here with personal experience
can give me the straight skinny. If you can mention the
particular model(s) you're familiar with (if you remember)
and its capacity (if any), that would help.

TIA,

Guy

Guy Alcala wrote:

snip

My thanks to all who replied.

Guy