Pitch vs. trim in flight phases

writes:

On aircraft that simulate it, the simulation is realistic.

But I thought that nothing is the same as the real thing, therefore _any_
simulation is unacceptable. If that's not true, then there must be some
simulations of flying that are just as realistic as the real thing.

You can't have it both ways. Either simulation works, or it doesn't.

In the early days of fly by wire airplanes without any control feedback,
the airplane tended to wander about the sky the way simmers do.

Simmers don't wander about the sky any more than real pilots.

Which airplanes do you have in mind, specifically?

Robert Moore writes:

In FAR Part 23, The FAA specifies the pressures that MUST exist,
and how it MUST vary with airspeed.

Jim just said that early FBW didn't have feedback. Who's right?

"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in
:

On May 16, 12:19 pm, gatt wrote:
Ken S. Tucker wrote:

Quick question, (it's been awhile since I've piloted)
is the trim (Cessna 152) in the center, right of the
pilot, and has zero mark to be set null in pre-flight?

Correct. (Well it has a "takeoff position" which is more or less
center.)

In the '74 PA-28R I rent it's between the seats and harder to see,
and takeoff position is about "a quarter-inch back" on the slot since
there's no visible mark. I don't like the trim-wheel there. The first
time I flew in the right seat and reached for the trim handle I
cracked my knuckle against the door.

Ok thanks.
I was ok with the location of the trim wheel, but the adjustment
was too coarse for me, but I could be a bitchy sissy.
My wheel was graduated, with a zero mark and did not quite
give the fine adjustment I wanted. That could be cables out
to the tail, I should have learned the mechanism!



Good grief, he's criticising design now.

Bertie

Nomen Nescio writes:

So you discount sensations because you're not interested?

No, I discount them because (1) they are not important; (2) they vary
considerably from one aircraft to another; and (3) they are unreliable and
cannot be depended upon.

Additionally, I get no pleasure from these sensations. Some people enjoy
roller-coasters and midway rides; I don't. I do not have a thrill-seeking
personality. My enjoyment comes from other aspects of aviation.

"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in
:

On May 16, 9:55 am, gatt wrote:
Mxsmanic wrote:
In a small GA aircraft, in which phases of flight will you
normally use mostly trim to adjust pitch, and in which phases will
you normally mostly use the yoke?

Good question for r.a.s.

You don't want to use the trim to adjust pitch, just to relieve the
control pressure. Electronic trim switches mounted to the yoke are a
bad habit waiting to happen; they're disabled in a lot of training
aircraft. Always remember "Pitch, power, trim."

The Airplane Flying Handbook, FAA-H-8083-3A, states:
"The pilot must avoid using the trim to establish or correct airplane
attitude. The airplane attitude must be established and held first,
then control pressures trimmed out so that the airplane will maintain
the desired attitude in 'hands off' flight. Attempting to 'fly the
airplane with trim tabs' is a common fault in basic flying technique
even among experienced pilots."

It's important for the pilot to feel the elevator pressure whereas
with a trim tab you're delegating that to mechanical authority.

Also, if you get out of the habit of knowing where your trim is set,
you increase the likelihood of approaching an elevator trim stall in
a missed approach or go-around. This can be demonstrated pretty well
in MSFS2004--I think in the Mooney--by adjusting the elevator trim as
if you were in full-flaps landing configuration and then adding full
power; back-elevator trim will cause a radical nose-up pitch,
exceeding the critical angle of attack. To avoid elevator trim stall
the pilot must exert a great deal of forward pressure on the nose
-and- retrim the airplane, and it has to be brisk and smooth.
Whether by hand or electric motor, controlling it by trim is too
slow. -c

Quick question, (it's been awhile since I've piloted)
is the trim (Cessna 152) in the center, right of the
pilot, and has zero mark to be set null in pre-flight?

Personally I had real friggin hassle with trim. I'd get
to 4000' set a course for x-country, maybe an hour
away, set cruise, then touch-up trim, to relieve yoke
control. Well it never really worked for me.
As soon as I thought I had it right, by Descent Indicator
(no jokes guys, women of the opposite sex might be lurkin)
would start wandering off zero.
My habit became, set Trim slightly down and use my
pinky pressure back on the yoke to keep my Descent
Indicator at zero, with an occasional glance so I could
enjoy the view and work nav.
Ken
PS: Kens Rule: Use your pinky to stop being InDescent,
and use the rest of your fingers anyway you want.


Descent indicator?


You're a moron.


Bertie

"Maxwell" luv2^fly99@cox.^net wrote in
:


wrote in message
news:2da21ff1-b22d-4dad-8ac7-
.
..
On May 16, 1:10 am, Nomen Nescio wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Juevie bull**** snipped
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Thanks for contributing so many lines to the noise level.
"If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem".


That was an ounce of prevention hoping to avoid the several pounds of
cure that will certainly follow.




Yeah, good luck with that fjukktard.




Bertie

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

writes:

On aircraft that simulate it, the simulation is realistic.

But I thought that nothing is the same as the real thing, therefore _any_
simulation is unacceptable. If that's not true, then there must be some
simulations of flying that are just as realistic as the real thing.

You can't have it both ways. Either simulation works, or it doesn't.

In the early days of fly by wire airplanes without any control feedback,
the airplane tended to wander about the sky the way simmers do.

Simmers don't wander about the sky any more than real pilots.

Which airplanes do you have in mind, specifically?


Anthony, you're a moron. You don't know **** from shinola.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

Robert Moore writes:

In FAR Part 23, The FAA specifies the pressures that MUST exist,
and how it MUST vary with airspeed.

Jim just said that early FBW didn't have feedback. Who's right?


Anthony, you're a moron. You don't know **** from shinola and lack the
mental capacity to comprehend what you've been told. Stick your head back
up your ass. At least you'll be doing something useful for mankind when
you do.

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

Nomen Nescio writes:

So you discount sensations because you're not interested?

No, I discount them because (1) they are not important; (2) they vary
considerably from one aircraft to another; and (3) they are unreliable
and cannot be depended upon.

Additionally, I get no pleasure from these sensations. Some people
enjoy roller-coasters and midway rides; I don't. I do not have a
thrill-seeking personality. My enjoyment comes from other aspects of
aviation.


BULL ****. You're a ****ing moron who doesn't know **** from shinola. You
have no idea what aviation is. You just jerk off playing MSFS and think
you're aviating. You're just a jerk jerking off.

Bertie the Bunyip wrote in
:

"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in
:

On May 16, 9:55 am, gatt wrote:
Mxsmanic wrote:
In a small GA aircraft, in which phases of flight will you
normally use mostly trim to adjust pitch, and in which phases will
you normally mostly use the yoke?

Good question for r.a.s.

You don't want to use the trim to adjust pitch, just to relieve the
control pressure. Electronic trim switches mounted to the yoke are a
bad habit waiting to happen; they're disabled in a lot of training
aircraft. Always remember "Pitch, power, trim."

The Airplane Flying Handbook, FAA-H-8083-3A, states:
"The pilot must avoid using the trim to establish or correct airplane
attitude. The airplane attitude must be established and held first,
then control pressures trimmed out so that the airplane will maintain
the desired attitude in 'hands off' flight. Attempting to 'fly the
airplane with trim tabs' is a common fault in basic flying technique
even among experienced pilots."

It's important for the pilot to feel the elevator pressure whereas
with a trim tab you're delegating that to mechanical authority.

Also, if you get out of the habit of knowing where your trim is set,
you increase the likelihood of approaching an elevator trim stall in
a missed approach or go-around. This can be demonstrated pretty well
in MSFS2004--I think in the Mooney--by adjusting the elevator trim as
if you were in full-flaps landing configuration and then adding full
power; back-elevator trim will cause a radical nose-up pitch,
exceeding the critical angle of attack. To avoid elevator trim stall
the pilot must exert a great deal of forward pressure on the nose
-and- retrim the airplane, and it has to be brisk and smooth.
Whether by hand or electric motor, controlling it by trim is too
slow. -c

Quick question, (it's been awhile since I've piloted)
is the trim (Cessna 152) in the center, right of the
pilot, and has zero mark to be set null in pre-flight?

Personally I had real friggin hassle with trim. I'd get
to 4000' set a course for x-country, maybe an hour
away, set cruise, then touch-up trim, to relieve yoke
control. Well it never really worked for me.
As soon as I thought I had it right, by Descent Indicator
(no jokes guys, women of the opposite sex might be lurkin)
would start wandering off zero.
My habit became, set Trim slightly down and use my
pinky pressure back on the yoke to keep my Descent
Indicator at zero, with an occasional glance so I could
enjoy the view and work nav.
Ken
PS: Kens Rule: Use your pinky to stop being InDescent,
and use the rest of your fingers anyway you want.


Descent indicator?


You're a moron.


Bertie


Hey Bertie, maybe Ken will set the bow planes for emergency dive and use
the depth meter to monitor his descent!