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On Anonymity, Moderated Fora, and Usenet



 
 
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  #1  
Old June 9th 08, 03:07 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Michael[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 185
Default On Anonymity, Moderated Fora, and Usenet

I'm seeing a lot of people leaving usenet quite publicly, in favor of
a moderated forum, because the signal to noise ratio on the group has
become so poor. This is of course their right and decision. I don't
intend to follow them, and that of course is mine. I will, however,
point out some major advantages of an unmoderated, anonymous forum -
like this one - for some of the topics we discuss.

Aviation is a highly regulated activity. In fact, I can't think of
any activity undertaken primarily for personal convenience or
recreation that is regulated at anythink like the level of personal
aviaiton. Cars, boats, motorcycles, parachutes, scuba - you name it,
and the level of regulation is much, much lower. What's more, the
regulations are out of touch with reality. Many are broken on a
routine basis, especially by the more experienced pilots.

At the same time, the FAA is full of busybody inspectors, some
actually willing to follow up allegations of pilot infraction
submitted by third parties. Any forum will, unfortunately, eventually
contain a snitch - someone willing to take what is said on the forum
and pass the information on to a third party in order to hurt the
poster. It was done here, and as a result many went anonymous.

Thus any forum that lacks effective anonymity limits discussion
tremendously - it would be like a motorcycle forum where everyone had
to pretend that we all ride the speed limit or less all the time,
because if you admitted to intentionally taking those 45 mph curves at
70 or disabling your rev limiter, someone could call the highway
patrol and get you investigated, and maybe get you fined or get your
license suspended.

Here's an example: There is a saying that if the pilot survives the
accident, you will never learn what really happened. This is true -
but incomplete. I've observed several accident and one incident (in-
flight control failure not leading to an accident) investigations
where I had inside knowledge - meaning I knew the people,
organizations, and aircraft involved - and in no case did that
critical inside knowledge wind up in the report. People were covering
their asses - and understandably so. I wasn't about to say anything
tot he feds either. As a result the NTSB reports read like works of
fiction, and there was nothing useful to learn from them. With
anonymity, I can (and have) posted such details here for people to
learn from. That's not something I can reasonably do without
anonymity.

Note that what I'm talking about here is minimally effective anonymity
- not enough to really keep anyone reasonably bright from figuring out
who you are, but the sort that would give you plausible deniability
and would significantly slow down a busybody FAA inspector. That's
really all that any of the long time posters here have.

The other issue is moderation. Moderation does generally help keep
the off-topic backbiting to a minimum - but at a price. The price is
that it has a chilling effect on controversy. It only chops off a
fraction of 1% of the on-topic posts - but they're the most
controversial fraction, the ones that challenge your most fundamental
core beliefs, the ones that have the potential to teach you the most.
That's the sort of thing that gets filtered by moderation. Too
inflammatory. They're VERY hard to write, very time consuming to
research, and nobody will bother if the moderator might just decide to
kill it.

Here's an example: Imagine if being a more conservative pilot made you
more dangerous, not safer. And that most private pilots would be
safer if they were less conservative, not more. That has to be
wrong. Doesn't it? It goes against the grain. I can make a very
solid case for it being true - here. Where some moderator doesn't
decide to filter it out because it can't be right. Not on a moderated
forum. No matter what the moderation policy might say about being
only to keep the discussion on topic, there are some things you just
can't say. Check out this link for a better explanation:
http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html

There's no question that if all you are looking for is an online
version of the pilot's lounge, a moderated forum is the way to go. It
will be more polite, more congenial, more like a real pilot's lounge.
Only if that's your goal - why not just go hang out at the real
pilot's lounge at the airport? But hey - that's not my call to make.
It's your choice.

Michael
  #2  
Old June 9th 08, 03:17 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Larry Dighera
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,953
Default On Anonymity, Moderated Fora, and Usenet

On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 07:07:49 -0700 (PDT), Michael
wrote in
:

Note that what I'm talking about here is minimally effective anonymity
- not enough to really keep anyone reasonably bright from figuring out
who you are, but the sort that would give you plausible deniability
and would significantly slow down a busybody FAA inspector. That's
really all that any of the long time posters here have.



So it would seem:

Whois Record

OrgName: Maytag Corporation
OrgID: MAYTAG
Address: 403 W. 4th St. N.
City: Newton
StateProv: IA
PostalCode: 50208
Country: US
  #3  
Old June 9th 08, 05:57 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,alt.usenet.kooks,alt.alien.vampire.flonk.flonk.flonk
Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,735
Default On Anonymity, Moderated Fora, and Usenet

Larry Dighera wrote in
:

On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 07:07:49 -0700 (PDT), Michael
wrote in
:

Note that what I'm talking about here is minimally effective anonymity
- not enough to really keep anyone reasonably bright from figuring out
who you are, but the sort that would give you plausible deniability
and would significantly slow down a busybody FAA inspector. That's
really all that any of the long time posters here have.



So it would seem:

Whois Record

OrgName: Maytag Corporation
OrgID: MAYTAG
Address: 403 W. 4th St. N.
City: Newton
StateProv: IA
PostalCode: 50208
Country: US


Good god.


Bertie
  #4  
Old June 9th 08, 06:08 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Maxwell[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,043
Default On Anonymity, Moderated Fora, and Usenet


"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
...
Larry Dighera wrote in
:

On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 07:07:49 -0700 (PDT), Michael
wrote in
:

Note that what I'm talking about here is minimally effective anonymity
- not enough to really keep anyone reasonably bright from figuring out
who you are, but the sort that would give you plausible deniability
and would significantly slow down a busybody FAA inspector. That's
really all that any of the long time posters here have.



So it would seem:

Whois Record

OrgName: Maytag Corporation
OrgID: MAYTAG
Address: 403 W. 4th St. N.
City: Newton
StateProv: IA
PostalCode: 50208
Country: US


Good god.


Bertie


Well Larry, looks like the wannabe moderator caught ya.

Morning Mr. Needsalife.




  #5  
Old June 9th 08, 06:17 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Larry Dighera
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,953
Default On Anonymity, Moderated Fora, and Usenet

On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 16:57:30 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote in :

Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting,alt.usenet.kooks,alt.alien.v ampire.flonk.flonk.flonk

  #6  
Old June 9th 08, 07:31 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Dudley Henriques[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,546
Default On Anonymity, Moderated Fora, and Usenet

Michael wrote:

There's no question that if all you are looking for is an online
version of the pilot's lounge, a moderated forum is the way to go. It
will be more polite, more congenial, more like a real pilot's lounge.
Only if that's your goal - why not just go hang out at the real
pilot's lounge at the airport? But hey - that's not my call to make.
It's your choice.

Mich


Your observations are respected of course but are not correct in my
opinion. Anonymity has nothing at all to do with the quality of dialog
on discussion groups. Anonymity is simply a tool of choice for the
poster. The quality of information will either be good or bad as posted.

Actually, the ONLY positive/negative aspect to anonymity that I have
experienced on Usenet is the somewhat enlightening factor that defines
every.....and I mean EVERY instance where a negative aspect can be
attached to a specific poster on Usenet, that poster was/is using an
online persona and not a real name. On the other hand, I've seen very
few instances where a poster using a real name (and I mean first AND
last name) was posting the kind of utter crap we've all been subjected
to lately here on RAP :-)

Your comment about "visiting a pilot's lounge" by visiting a moderated
forum is in my opinion on it's face ridiculous. The discussion on the
moderated forum is simply kept on topic by force instead of left to the
individual poster.

The truth is that BOTH Usenet and moderated forums can be useful IF the
posters themselves can control the venue. Usenet, at least Usenet on the
pilots forums, have demonstrated, and are demonstrating as we speak,
inability to do this.
THIS is the reason pilots are leaving these forums for the moderated forums.
As you can see, I'm still posting here on this forum. I will suggest to
you that what you will most likely see appear posted as answers to this
post might very well finish making my argument. :-)

Anyway, nice talking to you today.
--
Dudley Henriques
  #7  
Old June 9th 08, 08:11 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Dudley Henriques[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,546
Default On Anonymity, Moderated Fora, and Usenet

Michael wrote:
I'm seeing a lot of people leaving usenet quite publicly, in favor of
a moderated forum, because the signal to noise ratio on the group has
become so poor. This is of course their right and decision. I don't
intend to follow them, and that of course is mine. I will, however,
point out some major advantages of an unmoderated, anonymous forum -
like this one - for some of the topics we discuss.


Michael


Yes, by all means let's take a look at some of the advantages of an
unmoderated Usenet forum..........like this gem for example, posted
yesterday by some idiot posting here on this Usenet forum using a false
name.

"Dudley Henriques blithered dramatically whilst picking the gonad hairs
from his teeth once fluffy on the testicles of his retaded son "

Of course this Usenet moron has no idea that we just buried our son
after losing him to cancer.


--
Dudley Henriques
  #8  
Old June 9th 08, 08:11 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Michael[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 185
Default On Anonymity, Moderated Fora, and Usenet

On Jun 9, 2:31*pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:
The quality of information will either be good or bad as posted.


Except of course some information is too dangerous to post without
anonymity.

Actually, the ONLY positive/negative aspect to anonymity that I have
experienced on Usenet is the somewhat enlightening factor that defines
every.....and I mean EVERY instance where a negative aspect can be
attached to a specific poster on Usenet, that poster was/is using an
online persona and not a real name.


Demonstrably false. The most famous counter-example in the
rec.aviation hierarchy would be Robert L. Bass.

Michael
  #9  
Old June 9th 08, 08:21 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Dudley Henriques[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,546
Default On Anonymity, Moderated Fora, and Usenet

Michael wrote:


Demonstrably false. The most famous counter-example in the
rec.aviation hierarchy would be Robert L. Bass.

Michael


I don't agree. Bass was an unusual case, and I emphasize the word case :-)
Nobody said it's a perfect world out here. I'm simply making the case
that moderated forums are a viable alternative to the Usenet open forum
and for many people might be a better alternative.
I agree with you that it's a choice decision and must be made by
everyone based on their own personal views, and I respect your right to
disagree with me or anyone else.
For you and I, Usenet seems to work, but I can tell you from personal
experience, that the majority body count on bad posting and harassment
comes from those using a pseudonym on Usenet, Bass or no Bass! (is that
a question? :-)
--
Dudley Henriques
  #10  
Old June 9th 08, 09:00 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Andrew Sarangan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 382
Default On Anonymity, Moderated Fora, and Usenet

On Jun 9, 10:07 am, Michael wrote:
I'm seeing a lot of people leaving usenet quite publicly, in favor of
a moderated forum, because the signal to noise ratio on the group has
become so poor. This is of course their right and decision. I don't
intend to follow them, and that of course is mine. I will, however,
point out some major advantages of an unmoderated, anonymous forum -
like this one - for some of the topics we discuss.

Aviation is a highly regulated activity. In fact, I can't think of
any activity undertaken primarily for personal convenience or
recreation that is regulated at anythink like the level of personal
aviaiton. Cars, boats, motorcycles, parachutes, scuba - you name it,
and the level of regulation is much, much lower. What's more, the
regulations are out of touch with reality. Many are broken on a
routine basis, especially by the more experienced pilots.

At the same time, the FAA is full of busybody inspectors, some
actually willing to follow up allegations of pilot infraction
submitted by third parties. Any forum will, unfortunately, eventually
contain a snitch - someone willing to take what is said on the forum
and pass the information on to a third party in order to hurt the
poster. It was done here, and as a result many went anonymous.

Thus any forum that lacks effective anonymity limits discussion
tremendously - it would be like a motorcycle forum where everyone had
to pretend that we all ride the speed limit or less all the time,
because if you admitted to intentionally taking those 45 mph curves at
70 or disabling your rev limiter, someone could call the highway
patrol and get you investigated, and maybe get you fined or get your
license suspended.

Here's an example: There is a saying that if the pilot survives the
accident, you will never learn what really happened. This is true -
but incomplete. I've observed several accident and one incident (in-
flight control failure not leading to an accident) investigations
where I had inside knowledge - meaning I knew the people,
organizations, and aircraft involved - and in no case did that
critical inside knowledge wind up in the report. People were covering
their asses - and understandably so. I wasn't about to say anything
tot he feds either. As a result the NTSB reports read like works of
fiction, and there was nothing useful to learn from them. With
anonymity, I can (and have) posted such details here for people to
learn from. That's not something I can reasonably do without
anonymity.

Note that what I'm talking about here is minimally effective anonymity
- not enough to really keep anyone reasonably bright from figuring out
who you are, but the sort that would give you plausible deniability
and would significantly slow down a busybody FAA inspector. That's
really all that any of the long time posters here have.

The other issue is moderation. Moderation does generally help keep
the off-topic backbiting to a minimum - but at a price. The price is
that it has a chilling effect on controversy. It only chops off a
fraction of 1% of the on-topic posts - but they're the most
controversial fraction, the ones that challenge your most fundamental
core beliefs, the ones that have the potential to teach you the most.
That's the sort of thing that gets filtered by moderation. Too
inflammatory. They're VERY hard to write, very time consuming to
research, and nobody will bother if the moderator might just decide to
kill it.

Here's an example: Imagine if being a more conservative pilot made you
more dangerous, not safer. And that most private pilots would be
safer if they were less conservative, not more. That has to be
wrong. Doesn't it? It goes against the grain. I can make a very
solid case for it being true - here. Where some moderator doesn't
decide to filter it out because it can't be right. Not on a moderated
forum. No matter what the moderation policy might say about being
only to keep the discussion on topic, there are some things you just
can't say. Check out this link for a better explanation:http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html

There's no question that if all you are looking for is an online
version of the pilot's lounge, a moderated forum is the way to go. It
will be more polite, more congenial, more like a real pilot's lounge.
Only if that's your goal - why not just go hang out at the real
pilot's lounge at the airport? But hey - that's not my call to make.
It's your choice.

Michael


ASRS is a good example of anonymous reporting. But it is not fully
anonymous because someone at NASA reviews your information and then
strips your name from your message. They are effectively the
moderators. I would be fine with a usenet group which is anonymous but
moderated.

However, it is an undeniable fact that people who use their full real
names on usenet have rarely posted inflammatory messages.

The one big factor in favor of usenet is that it is fully archived and
searchable by google. There is literally millions of pieces of great
information from past discussions that you can't find anywhere else.
But if there is a way to allow google to search these private forums
as well, that difference would go away.

 




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