Switching to ground....

"Stefan" wrote in message
...

Runway incursion at Hamburg, Germany, 29 January 2004. Luckily
no accident because the Airbus managed to abort the take off. The
incursing Fokker could not be warned because, you guessed it, it
had already tuned in Ground freqeuncy.


If he switched to ground while still on the runway it's a different
situation.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

If he switched to ground while still on the runway it's a different
situation.

No, he had already left the runway. (Otherwise there couln't have been
an "incursion".)

Of course each situation is different. All I wanted to say is that it is
usually a good idea to stay with "the book". Many "book" rules have been
written with blood.

Stefan

I have done the exit at Golf and switch thing several times (the last being
only a few days ago). Clearly, you need to get off the runway if there's
someone landing and the tower has forgotten about you. I might wait somewhat
longer at an unfamiliar airport before switching (or use COM2, like other
people have said), but we all know the drill at BED, I don't see it as a
safety issue at all, and have never had a controller bat an eyelash.

Jeremy

"David Rind" wrote in message
...
I landed at BED a couple of days ago, and as I was rolling out
the controllers switched, so I never got the usual instruction
to "turn off at Golf, ground .7". Since Golf was the first
taxiway to turn off on anyway, I made the turn off.

Tower was now so busy (common at BED) that I could not get a word
in on the frequency. With the controller switch, I had clearly
been forgotten -- the new controller told someone else to turn off
on Golf before noticing that I was there, not moving. After
probably 60-90 seconds the frequency was clear enough for me to
ask whether she wanted me over on Ground.

At the time, and in retrospect, I think my choice to stay on
Tower frequency was correct under the regs, but silly -- that
I should have just contacted Ground and told them I was switching
over since I was sure Tower really wanted me on Ground but had
forgotten me.

I'm wondering if anyone disagrees and thinks the right thing to
do was what I actually did -- stay with the Tower until I could
get permission to change to Ground.

--
David Rind

"Stefan" wrote in message
...
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

If he switched to ground while still on the runway it's a different
situation.

No, he had already left the runway. (Otherwise there couln't have been
an "incursion".)

Did the Fokker roll back onto the runway?

"Stefan" wrote in message
...

No, he had already left the runway. (Otherwise there couln't have been
an "incursion".)


Eh? You said it was a runway incursion, that an accident was averted
because an Airbus managed to abort it's takeoff, and the offending Fokker
could not be warned because it had already
tuned in ground frequency.

How could there be a runway incursion if the offending aircraft was not on
the runway? Why did the airbus abort it's takeoff if the offending aircraft
was off the runway?

Tony Cox wrote:

Did the Fokker roll back onto the runway?

No. After landing, he was instructed by the tower to leave the runway
and taxi to the apron via taxiway xy. Other than one would expect, this
particular taxiway is not controlled by Ground but by Tower, because it
crosses another runway. The Fokker crew was not aware of this but
thought "well, we're on the taxiway, let's switch to Ground". Ground
wasn't aware of this, because they don't care what's on this taxyway,
and Tower couldn't contact them anymore.

Of course the Fokker should never have entered that crossing runway
without permission in the first place.

For details and an airport map look at the link I posted earlier.

Stefan

rwerw wrote:

The right and practical thing is to monitor tower on one radio while
calling ground and explaining the situation on the other radio.

What other radio? Some of us are lucky to have 1.

George Patterson
This marriage is off to a shaky start. The groom just asked the band to
play "Your cheatin' heart", and the bride just requested "Don't come home
a'drinkin' with lovin' on your mind".

"Stefan" wrote in message
...

No. After landing, he was instructed by the tower to leave the runway
and taxi to the apron via taxiway xy. Other than one would expect, this
particular taxiway is not controlled by Ground but by Tower, because it
crosses another runway. The Fokker crew was not aware of this but
thought "well, we're on the taxiway, let's switch to Ground". Ground
wasn't aware of this, because they don't care what's on this taxyway,
and Tower couldn't contact them anymore.


So how did he have a runway incursion on a taxiway?



Of course the Fokker should never have entered that crossing runway
without permission in the first place.


Ah, so he had it when he crossed the other runway. Well, the tower
shouldn't have instructed him to taxi to the apron if that involved crossing
a runway being used by a departing aircraft. Regardless what frequency he
was on, if the runway incursion ocurred while the aircraft was correctly
following an instruction from the tower the tower controller has to bear a
good share of the blame.



For details and an airport map look at the link I posted earlier.


I clicked on it, got a .pdf file in German.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

Ah, so he had it when he crossed the other runway. Well, the tower
shouldn't have instructed him to taxi to the apron if that involved crossing
a runway being used by a departing aircraft.

I don't know how it is in the USA, but in this part of the world, a taxi
instruction does *not* imply the right to cross a runway.

the tower controller has to bear a
good share of the blame.

No, as I pointed out. But anyway, this isn't the question. Good security
management is designed to be redundant. Being on the right frequency is
just one of several security layers.

For details and an airport map look at the link I posted earlier.

I clicked on it, got a .pdf file in German.

That's right. The airport chart is on page 17.

Stefan

"David Rind" wrote in message
...
snip
At the time, and in retrospect, I think my choice to stay on
Tower frequency was correct under the regs, but silly -- that
I should have just contacted Ground and told them I was switching
over since I was sure Tower really wanted me on Ground but had
forgotten me.

I'm wondering if anyone disagrees and thinks the right thing to
do was what I actually did -- stay with the Tower until I could
get permission to change to Ground.

--
David Rind


Dave,
From all that I have been taught and been able to find in the AIM &
FARs,waiting was the correct move.

However...,if holding at the taxiway placed your aircraft in danger,it would
fall to......

Sec. 91.3

Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.

(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is
the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.
(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in
command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to
meet that emergency.
(c) Each pilot in command who deviates from a rule under paragraph (b) of
this section shall, upon the request of the Administrator, send a written
report of that deviation to the Administrator.



Sec. 91.123

Compliance with ATC clearances and instructions.

(a) When an ATC clearance has been obtained, no pilot in command may deviate
from that clearance unless an amended clearance is obtained, an emergency
exists, or the deviation is in response to a traffic alert and collision
avoidance system resolution advisory. However, except in Class A airspace, a
pilot may cancel an IFR flight plan if the operation is being conducted in
VFR weather conditions. When a pilot is uncertain of an ATC clearance, that
pilot shall immediately request clarification from ATC.
(b) Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an
ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.
(c) Each pilot in command who, in an emergency, or in response to a traffic
alert and collision avoidance system resolution advisory, deviates from an
ATC clearance or instruction shall notify ATC of that deviation as soon as
possible.
(d) Each pilot in command who (though not deviating from a rule of this
subpart) is given priority by ATC in an emergency, shall submit a detailed
report of that emergency within 48 hours to the manager of that ATC
facility, if requested by ATC.
(e) Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person operating an aircraft may
operate that aircraft according to any clearance or instruction that has
been issued to the pilot of another aircraft for radar air traffic control
purposes.

Marty