New transponder mode S vs. mode C

At the OLC symosium last week, Garrecht was showing their Mode S
transponders. They have two versions, an all-in-one panel hole mount,
and a remote version. I think their price was 2000 Euro.

http://www.volkslogger.de/en/html/body_transponder.html

So, to summarize - I am not hearing any compelling reason to go with a
mode S transponder over a mode C transponder here in the U.S. Does
anyone disagree?
Eric Greenwell wrote:
BT wrote:
"jeplane" wrote in message
ups.com...
BT wrote:
US military fighter type aircraft do not currently have TCAS
Do not rely on TCAS to keep you safe
This is correct. However, there is no doubt a TCAS will keep you safeR!
But then again, you must have a transponder to be see on their screen.
It's an overkill on a 2-33 going around the pattern all day long, but
certainly not in a modern glider within 30 miles of a class B or C
airspace.

I fly for the same company involved in the mid-air. Trust me, at the
speed we fly, gliders are hard to see. Heck, even thermalling in a
glider, other gliders can be hard to spot!

Richard
Phoenix AZ


I will agree on the safeR part.. but only from part of the variety of
aircraft flying.
Gliders are hard to see.. so are T-38s coming at you nose on. T-38s don't
have TCAS.

Are the T-38s in contact with a radar facility that will inform it of a
transponder or even primary target? Do they have equipment that will
detect a transponder signal, even though they aren't using TCAS?

I ask because I've heard a number of times, from people that seem like
they ought to know, that fighters don't have any trouble detecting
another aircraft, unless they are near the ground. The aircraft/fighter
collisions I can remember all took place near the ground, like Chip
Garner's glider, and a crop duster here in Washington state.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

AH, but the real question is... would a 302 or other GPS be capable of
generating the data that could be fed to a Mode S transponder? Yeah,
yeah all the illegal stuff and your insurance would never pay if you
ground looped..., but would it work or are the certified GPS units
sending out a different data protocol?

hans wrote:
Hi Tom!

your 302 does not qualify as a certified GPS for the mode S transponder.

Best Regards


Hans


Tom N. schrieb:

I live in San Antonio, Texas, USA. We fly out of a field 15 nautical
miles away from San Antonio International airport and are basically on
final approach for a lot of jet traffic. There are also two Air Force
bases in the immediate area. There is no requirement in the U.S. to
have mode S as there will be in Europe. However, if there is less
power consumption due to fewer interrogations or if there is more
accuracy on TCAS, I would be willing to go with it. I use a Cambridge
302 for GPS.
Stefan wrote:

Tom N. schrieb:

Any opinions? I plan to install a new Becker transponder in my ASW-28.
Should I go with the old mode C unit or pay extra for the new mode S
unit? Thanks.

Tor answer this question, it would be extremely helpful to know in which
part of the world you intend to fly.

I can't remember any requirement of NMEA output for aviation certified
GPS receiver. Mode S transponder are at least required to work with
ARINC input. I have to check whether the ARINC input is the only
permitted input to the mode S transponder.


Gary Emerson schrieb:
AH, but the real question is... would a 302 or other GPS be capable of
generating the data that could be fed to a Mode S transponder? Yeah,
yeah all the illegal stuff and your insurance would never pay if you
ground looped..., but would it work or are the certified GPS units
sending out a different data protocol?

hans wrote:
Hi Tom!

your 302 does not qualify as a certified GPS for the mode S transponder.

Best Regards


Hans


Tom N. schrieb:

I live in San Antonio, Texas, USA. We fly out of a field 15 nautical
miles away from San Antonio International airport and are basically on
final approach for a lot of jet traffic. There are also two Air Force
bases in the immediate area. There is no requirement in the U.S. to
have mode S as there will be in Europe. However, if there is less
power consumption due to fewer interrogations or if there is more
accuracy on TCAS, I would be willing to go with it. I use a Cambridge
302 for GPS.
Stefan wrote:

Tom N. schrieb:

Any opinions? I plan to install a new Becker transponder in my
ASW-28.
Should I go with the old mode C unit or pay extra for the new mode S
unit? Thanks.

Tor answer this question, it would be extremely helpful to know in
which
part of the world you intend to fly.

Why would you want a Mode S transponder to be fed by a GPS? The
Extended Squitter variation of ADS-B does layer on top of the Mode S
downlink protocol, but simply feeding GPS data to a Mode S transponder
will not make it ADS-B compliant. An entirely new box will be needed.

The only reason to use a Mode S transponder in the US (outside of the
categories of aircraft for which it is mandated) is to take advantage of
the uplinked traffic and weather information, which needs an expensive
and power hungry multi-function display. Since some of those services
are now being shut down in anticipation of ADS-B deployment, even that
reason is slowly being rendered meaningless. Also, do not forget that
it costs roughly twice as much to recertify a Mode S transponder, and
you may have to go farther to find a shop that has the right test equipment.

In response to the original poster, if you spend extra money to install
and maintain a Mode S (instead of C) transponder in a glider operating
in the US, you're simply wasting money...

Marc

Gary Emerson wrote:
AH, but the real question is... would a 302 or other GPS be capable of
generating the data that could be fed to a Mode S transponder? Yeah,
yeah all the illegal stuff and your insurance would never pay if you
ground looped..., but would it work or are the certified GPS units
sending out a different data protocol?

hans wrote:
Hi Tom!

your 302 does not qualify as a certified GPS for the mode S transponder.

Best Regards


Hans


Tom N. schrieb:

I live in San Antonio, Texas, USA. We fly out of a field 15 nautical
miles away from San Antonio International airport and are basically on
final approach for a lot of jet traffic. There are also two Air Force
bases in the immediate area. There is no requirement in the U.S. to
have mode S as there will be in Europe. However, if there is less
power consumption due to fewer interrogations or if there is more
accuracy on TCAS, I would be willing to go with it. I use a Cambridge
302 for GPS.
Stefan wrote:

Tom N. schrieb:

Any opinions? I plan to install a new Becker transponder in my
ASW-28.
Should I go with the old mode C unit or pay extra for the new mode S
unit? Thanks.

Tor answer this question, it would be extremely helpful to know in
which
part of the world you intend to fly.

Mike Schumann wrote:
You need a graphic display device, like a Garmin 430 to see traffic.
Beware. The FAA has announced that new radars will not support the Traffic
Info function, so the main advantage of Mode S will be gone. I would opt
for a low cost solution, as eventually ADS-B will obsolete both Mode S and
Mode C transponders.

I read somewhere that mode S transponders were going to be the data-link
platform for ADS-B, though it wasn't clear if all mode S transponders
would be capable of it. Has the FAA chosen some other other platform?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Are the T-38s in contact with a radar facility that will inform it of a
transponder or even primary target? Do they have equipment that will
detect a transponder signal, even though they aren't using TCAS?

If they are below Class A, they may or may not be in contact with ATC.


I ask because I've heard a number of times, from people that seem like
they ought to know, that fighters don't have any trouble detecting another
aircraft, unless they are near the ground. The aircraft/fighter collisions
I can remember all took place near the ground, like Chip Garner's glider,
and a crop duster here in Washington state.


"Fighter" type aircraft do have "air to air" radar capability to scan for
and "target" other aircraft, transponder not required. Those are aircraft
normally begining with "F", as in F-16, F-15, F14, F18.
T-38s are trainers.. not fighters.. no air to air radar.

BT

BT wrote:
Are the T-38s in contact with a radar facility that will inform it of a
transponder or even primary target? Do they have equipment that will
detect a transponder signal, even though they aren't using TCAS?

If they are below Class A, they may or may not be in contact with ATC.

I ask because I've heard a number of times, from people that seem like
they ought to know, that fighters don't have any trouble detecting another
aircraft, unless they are near the ground. The aircraft/fighter collisions
I can remember all took place near the ground, like Chip Garner's glider,
and a crop duster here in Washington state.


"Fighter" type aircraft do have "air to air" radar capability to scan for
and "target" other aircraft, transponder not required. Those are aircraft
normally begining with "F", as in F-16, F-15, F14, F18.
T-38s are trainers.. not fighters.. no air to air radar.

No radar, no ATC, no TPAS - so, some part of the time, the T-38 can only
detect other aircraft visually. Do the T-38s have transponders, so a
TPAS carried by a glider could detect their proximity?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

No radar, no ATC, no TPAS - so, some part of the time, the T-38 can only
detect other aircraft visually. Do the T-38s have transponders, so a TPAS
carried by a glider could detect their proximity?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Yes
BT

Mike Schumann wrote:
You need a graphic display device, like a Garmin 430 to see traffic.
Beware. The FAA has announced that new radars will not support the Traffic
Info function, so the main advantage of Mode S will be gone. I would opt
for a low cost solution, as eventually ADS-B will obsolete both Mode S and
Mode C transponders.

Mike Schumann

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
news:Ngc3h.1954$qJ6.1740@trndny07...

Roger wrote:

S mode gives you traffic and is wonderful if you fly where there is
other transpoder equiped aircraft. It has been very useful to me in
general aviation.

Can you tell us what additional equipment it takes to get the traffic, how
the traffic is displayed, and where the traffic information is available?
For example, I think I read in the AOPA newsletter that the traffic info
was being cut back in a number of places, and was mainly available near
large cities, but I've never used the system.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org



Low cost transponder - now there's an oxymoron.