Buying recently rebuilt or fixing one up?

Jon Woellhaf wrote:
: wrote
: ...
: I am early in my training and have not even soloed yet. I would not
: even consider buying anything until after I have earned my
: certificate.

: Why not? I bought my 182 before I had my Private.

It's the cheapest way to learn to fly. Of course it comes with the normal issues of plane ownership (education
before purchase, maintenance, chance of having large annual expenses, etc). Ignoring those as "things you would have to
learn anyway," the only drawback is having a few more things to consider during your training if your plane has issues.
Otherwise, there are lots of plusses... you can fly *A LOT* more on your student license because the direct cost per hour is
much lower. You come to know one plane very well rather than swapping around different rentals. You will be putting lots of
hours on in a short period of time... good for an airplane. etc, etc.

Although I rented for my private ticket, I spent the last half of it looking for a plane to buy (with 2 other
partners). By the time we'd found one, it was simply easier to prepare for my checkride than to get checked out in my own
plane (I was flying 172's and bought a PA-28-180). If I had to do it over again, I'd buy a plane (maybe with a partner or
two again) and learn to fly it. Spending $1k on fuel and oil is setter than wasting $4k-$6k on rentals.

The posters who've said, "you don't know what you want" are right to a degree as well. As a student pilot, many are
often happy to have anything that will get them in the air. Talking with other pilots and owners will help make your
decision. Besides.... if you buy a Cherokee for $30-35k, put 150-200 hours on it in 1-2 years and get your ticket in it,
it's not worth much less than it was when you bought it except the maintenance you had to do on it.

-Cory


--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
* Electrical Engineering *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

wrote:
I am currently taking flying lessons. I would like to own my own
aircraft and have been considering various options.
.stuff snipped

We (wife and I) bought ours to train in and to keep afterward. With no
kids, a Cherokee 140 still fits our profile. Paint, interior, radios,
and other upgrades and 14 years later, it is still a keeper for us.

Other encourage buying one to learn in. That topic has been well hashed.
For some, it works. For others the distraction of owning while training
(and presumably keeping a "day job") may be overwhelming. Opinions vary.

Likely once you have your ticket, you will want to go somewhere. Mission
length, how many pax and bags you take, terrain elevation, runway
lengths, and other considerations may be vastly different than the plane
you trained in can handle. Rent a couple of examples. Find others with
planes that may suit you and talk their ear off.

It is almost always significantly less expensive to buy something ready
to go with a solid pedigree than trying to "fix something up". Few
realize how much things actually cost, pay too much for a junker, and
wind up behind the 8-ball financially. If the spread between a
particular model is $15k, ask yourself if you really have $15-$25k spare
cash on hand AND you can pay the note you may have taken out to buy the
beast AND you can afford gas, AND you can afford maintenance while you
are fixing it up AND you can keep up with all your other bills. Remember
that the shiny new paint job someone paid $8,000 for may be actually
only worth about half that amount if they wind up selling the plane
right out of the paint shop. Same holds true for most avionics, engine
overhauls, interiors, speed mods, etc. Wouldn't you rather be on the
receiving end of that calculation? Some say to fix it up yourself so
that you "know what you have got". You know all right, you have a BIG
list of bills. As I have stated before though, most simple pistons
single airplanes for sale are flying junk. Actually finding something in
decent shape can be a challenge.

Several posters will tout their tale of how they did it on a shoestring.
The ones who took a financial bath don't brag about their failures here
on the 'Net. I suspect there are quite a few who got underwater with a
"fixer upper". And for those who succeeded, I say "Great job!". But
perhaps you should consider that they got lucky, had an "inside" with a
local mechanic, or had the skills and tools (and willing mechanic) to do
the work themselves. Do YOU have those things? When you don't know what
to look for in a fixer upper, don't know how to fix things yourself, and
don't know how/where to shop for parts, you can get seriously under
water. Paying "retail" (A.K.A. "handing the keys to the local FBO") can
also bust a budget pretty quickly.

As I said, look over the fleet via renting. Patience rarely fails to
produce the best outcome in aviation ownership.

Good Luck,
Mike

As a general rule, you never get out of an airplane what you put into
"fixing it up" unless you can do the work yourself. Avionics in
particular only retain 50 cents on the dollar invested. Engine
overhauls do better, as do cosmetics, but you never get 100% back in
terms of resale value.

Much cheaper in the long run to buy the plane you want. If you know
exactly what you want, however, it'll take a long time to find it.
Used aircraft are like old houses, with weird add-ons that make you
think, "What was he thinking when he had that installed?".

The only advantages to fixing are that 1. you do get to choose your
installer/overhauler, and that does make a difference in the quality
of the result; and 2. you get to choose exactly what equipment you
want.

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul kgyy [mailto Posted At: Sunday, September 02, 2007 4:07 PM
Posted To: rec.aviation.owning
Conversation: Buying recently rebuilt or fixing one up?
Subject: Buying recently rebuilt or fixing one up?

As a general rule, you never get out of an airplane what you put into
"fixing it up" unless you can do the work yourself. Avionics in
particular only retain 50 cents on the dollar invested. Engine
overhauls do better, as do cosmetics, but you never get 100% back in
terms of resale value.

Much cheaper in the long run to buy the plane you want. If you know
exactly what you want, however, it'll take a long time to find it.
Used aircraft are like old houses, with weird add-ons that make you
think, "What was he thinking when he had that installed?".

The only advantages to fixing are that 1. you do get to choose your
installer/overhauler, and that does make a difference in the quality
of the result; and 2. you get to choose exactly what equipment you
want.

Another advantage to fixing one up deals with cashflow. It might be
possible to buy an aircraft that will need an engine in 400 or so hours
if you most likely will do an STC upgrade to a different engine at that
time. It could be a lot cheaper to buy with the smaller engine, build
time with lower operational costs, reduce the insurance charges (by
building time), and then put in the bigger engine later.

Of course I'm not talking about buying a project plane, but one that
could safely be flown for a few years before needing the engine upgrade.