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#21
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On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 18:14:03 GMT, Chad Irby wrote:
Steven DeMonnin wrote: The real Asymmetry is in the quality of the pilots. I don't know the Israeli training tempo, but I read a piece by Victor Hanson that said it was comparable to the US training tempo, and that most dictatorial states have a training regimen that is about 5% of the time the US devotes to its pilots. In military training, marginal quantitative difference can lead to huge qualitative differences. Not to mention ,of course, the ground troops maintaining the planes. Those brand new Eurofighters are going to be combat-effective for a month, maybe two, and if they go into a heavy training regimen, it'll be shorter than that. And since they'll be "new" planes, they're going to have the normal teething problems, without a good crew to do the updates and fixes that any plane suffers off of the assemby line. If Israel buys a counter to the Typhoon -- say Typhoons themselves, or F-35, or F/A-22, then they too will have the same teething troubles. -- A: top posting Q: what's the most annoying thing about Usenet? |
#22
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On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 15:44:56 -0400, Peter Kemp peter_n_kempathotmaildotcom wrote:
On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 13:19:35 -0600, Scott Ferrin wrote: On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 11:56:58 -0400, Peter Kemp peter_n_kempathotmaildotcom wrote: Python 4 is indeed supposed to be very good. Now look up ASRAAM, which is a handy little performer itself. Let's not forget the recently announced Python 5. Indeed, although IIRC the 5 is basically a 4 with a staring array (please correct me if my memory's going). Yes. Python 5 is new guidance system, same everything else. ASRAAM already has the staring array. Python 5 is said to have 100 degree off-boresight aquisition, and lock on after launch which IIRC ASRAAM doesn't have. -- A: top posting Q: what's the most annoying thing about Usenet? |
#23
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On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 20:22:07 GMT, Chad Irby wrote:
In article , (phil hunt) wrote: Presumably, if Egypt and Saudi Arabia were prepared to pay large amounts of money for Typhoons, they would also be prepared to pay for pilot training. Not from past history. The Saudis are notoriously bad at enforcing training their pilots. Any reason why? I mean, it doesn't make any sense to me. -- A: top posting Q: what's the most annoying thing about Usenet? |
#24
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On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 22:31:02 +0100, Paul J. Adam wrote:
No, it's cheaper and easier to maintain than the F/A-22. Pretty much anything's cheaper than the F/A-22. I wonder if it costs more than its weight in gold. (Notice the hasty redesignation? This aircraft can carry two 1000lb bombs, it's a mighty attack platform! Indeed. Maybe it fooled a few congressmen. -- A: top posting Q: what's the most annoying thing about Usenet? |
#25
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On 13 Sep 2003 15:57:53 -0700, Quant wrote:
The Eurofighter Typhoon will give the Saudi Armed Forces the capability maintain air superiority over any country in the Middle East including Israel. Hang, on, who's saying thre Saudis are buying the Typhoon? If they are, I haven't heard of it. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2274194.stm That report is a year old. BAE Systems has denied a report that it is in talks with Saudi Arabia about the sale of Typhoon Eurofighter jets. If they're denying it, it must be true! :-) (Just like when the PM tells everyone a minister "has his full support", you know the guy will shortly be sacked). The Observer newspaper said that the company was in talks with Saudi Arabia about the sale of 50 jets in a deal worth at least £1.5bn ($2.3bn). I think 50 Eurofighters would set the Saudis back considerably more than that. Austria are paying EUR 62 m each, which works out at GBP 2.183 bn for 50. And then you have to add weapons, spares, training, etc. And the paper added that Saudi Arabia might make some of the payments for the jets through oil shipments, similar to the al-Yamamah oil-for-arms deal struck in the 1980s. Plausible. Elbit systems (Israel) already have such an operative system, but people in this NG suggested that appropriate modification to the missiles can neutralize this system. You could home in on the laser beam, for example. and would fit its planes with appropriate counter measures, the Saudis won't have a clue about Israel's unique technological modifications because Israel is doing a lot of those modifications itself. I don't see why SA and Egypt couldn't make modifications ot their aircraft too, even if they don't have a large electronics industry. Israel for example can develop a special decoy to deal with specific system it knows the Arabs have. Israel could develop measures to disrupt specific communications. The Arabs could re-write parts of the software, to make the systems behave differently. The Arabs doesn't have an electronic industry at all. Not even a small one. You don't need one to write software. I bet a lot of modern avionics these days is FPGAs and other programmable chips which are kinda like software (in the sense that you don't need a massive capital-intensive industry to make changes). I doubt if Israel's electronics industry is better than Europe's; Europe's is certainly a lot bigger. And size counts: how many models of anti-aircraft missile does Israel produce? Python 5 and Derby. The US is using Israel's ITALD. US and many European countries use Israel's litening syustem. Elbit will develop and produce the JSF HMD, etc. It's true that Israel's industry is smaller but many of its products are the best in the world. Hmm. If Israel's aviation industry is so good, how come they couldn't develop the Lavi, but Sweden, with a similar population (and probably smaller development budget) could develop the Gripen? I'm willing to beleive that Israel makes competent military kit. I'm not willing to beleive that Israeli kit is consistently better than the best European kit. Israelis are humans, not supermen. Europe produces more variety. So even if the best Israeli missile is better than a typical European one, it might not be better than the best European one. Europe doesn't develop measures especially to counter Israeli weapons. That's true, and a good point. Typhoon (and much other European kit) was designed to counter the USSR, specifically the MiG-29. But the USSR doesn't exist any more. Defence contractors (*like other businesses) make what people will buy. Al Yamammah was one of the biggest defence contracts ever -- who says BAE or MBDA won't make kit to counter israeli weapons in future? Israel is devloping measures especially to counter weapons that Arabs are buying. Indeed true. -- A: top posting Q: what's the most annoying thing about Usenet? |
#26
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On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 15:35:52 -0700, Steven DeMonnin wrote:
I doubt it. If Saudi Arabia just wanted to prevent rebellions, they could have bought something a lot cheaper than the F-15. That article I referenced (If I could find it, I would post it.) made the point that dictitorial regeimes (not specificly middle eastern regeimes, this applies to all regiems of this type) have a different military with a different objective than the militaries of the democratic states. The military is mostly used to keep the most volitle part of the population (single unemployed males under 25) under close supervision. Given the small size of the Saudi army, I don't think that can be true. They aren't interested in a military that actually shoots at a forign enemy. There are counterexamples, e.g. Nazi Germany. -- A: top posting Q: what's the most annoying thing about Usenet? |
#28
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In article ,
(phil hunt) wrote: On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 20:22:07 GMT, Chad Irby wrote: In article , (phil hunt) wrote: Presumably, if Egypt and Saudi Arabia were prepared to pay large amounts of money for Typhoons, they would also be prepared to pay for pilot training. Not from past history. The Saudis are notoriously bad at enforcing training their pilots. Any reason why? I mean, it doesn't make any sense to me. Look, for example, at every other Arab military unit in the Middle East. What makes you think the Saudi Air Force will suddenly be any different? -- Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations. Slam on brakes accordingly. |
#29
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Chad Irby wrote in message . com...
In article , (phil hunt) wrote: On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 20:22:07 GMT, Chad Irby wrote: In article , (phil hunt) wrote: Presumably, if Egypt and Saudi Arabia were prepared to pay large amounts of money for Typhoons, they would also be prepared to pay for pilot training. Not from past history. The Saudis are notoriously bad at enforcing training their pilots. Any reason why? I mean, it doesn't make any sense to me. Look, for example, at every other Arab military unit in the Middle East. btw, the Jordanian pilots are said to be well trained and tough opponents. What makes you think the Saudi Air Force will suddenly be any different? |
#30
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