Fixes provided in routing for IFR flight plans - VFR waypoints okay?

Although lat/long is technically acceptable, my experience is ATC
doesn't like them and dont know where they are. Also, they don't know
how to call them out. ATC prefers VOR/DME, which you can use the GPS to
find if you know how. But the best thing IS VOR's or airports. Although
intersections SHOULD be ok, I've seen ATC not know where some are. The
VFR waypoints are excluded, I guess they didn't want to go there. Best
thing these days seems to be to file direct and take what you get
UNLESS you fly it all the time and KNOW what ATC is going to give you,
in which case, file THAT.

It's a bit of a quagmire and I've filed one route, gotten my ground
clearance for a second route and then once in the air, been told to
fly a third. Which is why I just file direct (which is the fastest
anyway).

Sam Spade writes:

With intelligent preflight planning and intelligent use of RNAV, the
odds of SAR finding a downed VFR aircraft aircraft are very good
especially when the ELT doesn't work.

If I put specific waypoints on my VFR flight plan and fly them, I'd
expect that SAR would be able to go directly to the point where I went
down, or nearly so. That's a lot easier and faster than searching
thousands of square miles.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
Sam Spade writes:

With intelligent preflight planning and intelligent use of RNAV, the
odds of SAR finding a downed VFR aircraft aircraft are very good
especially when the ELT doesn't work.

If I put specific waypoints on my VFR flight plan and fly them, I'd
expect that SAR would be able to go directly to the point where I went
down, or nearly so. That's a lot easier and faster than searching
thousands of square miles.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

SAR is not going to be able to go directly to the point where you went down.
All they know is when where you started from, where you were going, and how
you were planning to get there. When SAR is initiated 1/2 hour after you
don't arrive, they have the entire route to search. But, at least they have
a route to search. The closer to the center line of that planned route you
are when you go down, the better the odds of them finding you. Lat/long
fixes or formal NAVAID fixes, it doesn't really matter.

--
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK

Travis Marlatte writes:

SAR is not going to be able to go directly to the point where you went down.
All they know is when where you started from, where you were going, and how
you were planning to get there.

They know all the position reports I made, too. So they should be
able to extrapolate from my last position report and narrow things
down considerably.

The closer to the center line of that planned route you
are when you go down, the better the odds of them finding you. Lat/long
fixes or formal NAVAID fixes, it doesn't really matter.

Which is where RNAV comes in handy. I would tend to favor RNAV for
any long flight, even VFR. I can look out the window and see if the
scenery matches what I expect based on the navigation.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Travis Marlatte wrote:



SAR is not going to be able to go directly to the point where you went down.
All they know is when where you started from, where you were going, and how
you were planning to get there. When SAR is initiated 1/2 hour after you
don't arrive, they have the entire route to search. But, at least they have
a route to search. The closer to the center line of that planned route you
are when you go down, the better the odds of them finding you. Lat/long
fixes or formal NAVAID fixes, it doesn't really matter.


For VFR flight plans LAT/LON has a huge advantage over published fixes
in many parts of the Western U.S., both to avoid restricted areas and
remain in valleys (ala Eastern California, most of Nevada, and other
states with similar topography.

Sam Spade writes:

For VFR flight plans LAT/LON has a huge advantage over published fixes
in many parts of the Western U.S., both to avoid restricted areas and
remain in valleys (ala Eastern California, most of Nevada, and other
states with similar topography.

I sometimes fix up user waypoints for precisely this reason. When you
can't fly at FL340, it's handy to be able to plan a route that avoids
really high terrain, but the official waypoints are sometimes too thin
on the ground to serve the purpose.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

On Sat, 02 Dec 2006 16:32:43 GMT, "Travis Marlatte"
wrote:

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
.. .
Sam Spade writes:

With intelligent preflight planning and intelligent use of RNAV, the
odds of SAR finding a downed VFR aircraft aircraft are very good
especially when the ELT doesn't work.

If I put specific waypoints on my VFR flight plan and fly them, I'd
expect that SAR would be able to go directly to the point where I went
down, or nearly so. That's a lot easier and faster than searching
thousands of square miles.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

SAR is not going to be able to go directly to the point where you went down.
All they know is when where you started from, where you were going, and how
you were planning to get there. When SAR is initiated 1/2 hour after you

You are making an optimistic assumption that SAR is going to be
initiated a 1/2 hour after you don't arrive.

Real case in point. I arrived at Lee Gilmer Memorial (KGVL) NE of
Atlanta around 11:00 PM. The phones weren't working. It was
something line 2 or 3 hours later before I actually was able to
contact FSS (I could have driven in and knocked on the door faster).
to close my flight plan. I apologized for being late. The comment
was something to the effect of "Late? Oh, yah, I guess you are a
little on the late side".

IOW in some cases SAR may not even be alerted unless some one calls
and wonders where you are.

don't arrive, they have the entire route to search. But, at least they have
a route to search. The closer to the center line of that planned route you
are when you go down, the better the odds of them finding you. Lat/long

and those odds are pretty poor if most of the route is heavily wooded
terrain.

It's fairly well populated around here. A Bonanza went down headed
for MtPleasant. It's less than 20 miles from Midland to Mt Pleasant.
The pilot and copilot had walked out of the swamp and called well
before the plane was found. OTOH it was snowing like made. They went
directly over our house and went down about 6 miles west or here.

fixes or formal NAVAID fixes, it doesn't really matter.

With a flight plan AND flight following they are more likely to know
where you might be as the loss of transponder signal normally gets
their attention. Coming out of Kansas scooting under some really
nasty stuff I had precipitation static build up to the point where I
had to cycle the electrical system. As I recall they were calling
me when the radios came back to life.

However in *some* areas FSS is far more alert to over due aircraft
than others. Due to Denver ATC rerouting me around some *areas* and
threading our way between clouds containing tornados and giant hail I
was a bit behind schedule arriving at Jefferson County, Jefco (BJC). I
made certain to call as soon as we were on the ground. They were
still upset as I was pushing the limits.

I hate to burst that warm and fuzzy feeling bubble :-)) but SAR may
not even be notified until the next day depending on conditions.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Roger wrote in
:

On Sat, 02 Dec 2006 16:32:43 GMT, "Travis Marlatte"
wrote:

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
. ..
Sam Spade writes:

With intelligent preflight planning and intelligent use of RNAV,
the odds of SAR finding a downed VFR aircraft aircraft are very
good especially when the ELT doesn't work.

If I put specific waypoints on my VFR flight plan and fly them, I'd
expect that SAR would be able to go directly to the point where I
went down, or nearly so. That's a lot easier and faster than
searching thousands of square miles.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

SAR is not going to be able to go directly to the point where you went
down. All they know is when where you started from, where you were
going, and how you were planning to get there. When SAR is initiated
1/2 hour after you

You are making an optimistic assumption that SAR is going to be
initiated a 1/2 hour after you don't arrive.

Real case in point. I arrived at Lee Gilmer Memorial (KGVL) NE of
Atlanta around 11:00 PM. The phones weren't working. It was
something line 2 or 3 hours later before I actually was able to
contact FSS (I could have driven in and knocked on the door faster).
to close my flight plan. I apologized for being late. The comment
was something to the effect of "Late? Oh, yah, I guess you are a
little on the late side".

IOW in some cases SAR may not even be alerted unless some one calls
and wonders where you are.

don't arrive, they have the entire route to search. But, at least they
have a route to search. The closer to the center line of that planned
route you are when you go down, the better the odds of them finding
you. Lat/long

and those odds are pretty poor if most of the route is heavily wooded
terrain.

It's fairly well populated around here. A Bonanza went down headed
for MtPleasant. It's less than 20 miles from Midland to Mt Pleasant.
The pilot and copilot had walked out of the swamp and called well
before the plane was found. OTOH it was snowing like made. They went
directly over our house and went down about 6 miles west or here.

fixes or formal NAVAID fixes, it doesn't really matter.

With a flight plan AND flight following they are more likely to know
where you might be as the loss of transponder signal normally gets
their attention. Coming out of Kansas scooting under some really
nasty stuff I had precipitation static build up to the point where I
had to cycle the electrical system. As I recall they were calling
me when the radios came back to life.

However in *some* areas FSS is far more alert to over due aircraft
than others. Due to Denver ATC rerouting me around some *areas* and
threading our way between clouds containing tornados and giant hail I
was a bit behind schedule arriving at Jefferson County, Jefco (BJC). I
made certain to call as soon as we were on the ground. They were
still upset as I was pushing the limits.

I hate to burst that warm and fuzzy feeling bubble :-)) but SAR may
not even be notified until the next day depending on conditions.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com


The classic case for SAR not finding a downed aircraft is the Lear
which crashed on an ILS approach to LEB (Lebanon, NH) on December 24, 1996.
The wreckage wasn't found until November 11, 1999.

---
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

"Roger" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 02 Dec 2006 16:32:43 GMT, "Travis Marlatte"
wrote:
SAR is not going to be able to go directly to the point where you went
down.
All they know is when where you started from, where you were going, and
how
you were planning to get there. When SAR is initiated 1/2 hour after you

You are making an optimistic assumption that SAR is going to be
initiated a 1/2 hour after you don't arrive.

I understand. As usual, I over-generalized an important fact in my haste to
make a different point.

To summarize the points that I agree with in this thread:

1) Lat/Longs or other RNAV waypoints are fine for VFR fixes in a flight
plan. Nobody is going to look at them until it's necessary anyway.
2) Lat/Longs or other RNAV waypoints will allow you to fly as directly to
your destination as possible while avoiding obstacles/terain/airspace and
still give ATC and SAR a clear definition of your flight path.
3) Position reports on a VFR flight plan increase the likelyhood of being
found quickly by SAR

Conclusion: None of the above is worth it to me. I sure as heck am not going
to plot out lat/longs and program my GPS with them. Kind of takes the fun
out of flying VFR, doesn't it?
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK

Roger wrote:



IOW in some cases SAR may not even be alerted unless some one calls
and wonders where you are.

No doubt about it. A prudent course of action is to have someone who
gives a damn about you to make the wakeup call. But, once that is done,
SAR will benefit greatly from a precise VFR track.