AP reporting JFK's skipper will be relieved

Diamond Jim,

But come to think of it (I wasn't a Black Shoe so I don't know) but doesn't
a vessel under sail have the right of way over any powered vessel?

True, IIRC...as long as one doesn't care that exercising their right-of-way
under this rule just might conflict with the Law Of Gross Tonnage.
Newtonian mechanics trump all laws of Man. g

***

Sea Story About "Vessels" - Very Tangential

My Dad (also a retired Naval aviator) recalls a 1960s era visit he and
several other officers made while serving on the USEUCOM staff to the
then-U.S. Ambassador to Greece. This distinguished gent, a retired USN flag
officer, regaled his visitors in proper fashion for a former naval person.
(Translation: They did what all good sailormen do in port - they went
drinking.)

One of the EUCOM visitors, an Army LTC, asked the Ambassador, "...what
vessel he liked the best in his naval career?" The Ambassador - by now
several sheets to the wind - roared back, "A VESSEL IS SOMETHING YOU ****
IN! AND A SHIP IS NOT A VESSEL!"

--
Mike Kanze (not a shoe either, and trying hard to remember my International
Rules of the Road)

"In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!"

- Homer Simpson


"Diamond Jim" wrote in message
. ..

"Larry" wrote in message
...

"John S. Shinal" wrote in
message
...
Woody Beal wrote:
Command at sea. No other service quite matches it. Ultimate
responsibility
and accountability. Hard concept for those outside the Navy to
understand
sometimes.

Looks tough. Dinged for someone in a dhow trying to run past
the bow of a CVN. Or are they more upset over the a/c getting bent up?

Yes, the cost of the A/C repair upsets the 'higher ups'. But the real big
deal is that a little boat actually got close enough to contact the ship.
Had it been loaded with explosives, there would have been a very
different
outcome. In this current climate of security, THIS is what really upsets
the
'higher ups'.

There have been similar incidents (in years past) that did not end up
with
the CO being relieved, but these days things have definetly changed.

Larry
AECS (AW/SW/MTS)
USN 'Retired'
20 years if gettin 'em off the pointy end
AND safely home again!

I was at the local Naval Hospital last Friday and as I was waiting for my
appointment I started to look at a recent copy of the Navy Times that
another retired old fart set down. I only looked at it for about 15
seconds
before I was called but, what I read said that the Dhow or whatever it was
had been spotted and watched for a fairly long time.

So it wasn't a surprise "Where did that SOB come from!" type of thing.

I don't know if the JFK was at Flight Quarters, or what but if they were
the
JFK CO should have had one of the escorts shoulder the Dhow out of the
way.
Maybe the escorts have forgotten how to perform this maneuver since the
cold
war ended and they can't practice with the ruskie trawlers. Somehow I have
gotten the impression from what others have said, what was on the news and
in the papers, that the JFK CO, was depending on his having the right of
way.

But come to think of it (I wasn't a Black Shoe so I don't know) but
doesn't
a vessel under sail have the right of way over any powered vessel?

Diamond Jim

"Diamond Jim" wrote:

I was at the local Naval Hospital last Friday and as I was waiting for my
appointment I started to look at a recent copy of the Navy Times that
another retired old fart set down. I only looked at it for about 15 seconds
before I was called but, what I read said that the Dhow or whatever it was
had been spotted and watched for a fairly long time.

So it wasn't a surprise "Where did that SOB come from!" type of thing.

Which would appear to be even more damning for the JFK skipper.
If his bridge crew, et al, were aware of it and "watch[ing] it
for a fairly long time", HITH did they manage to run into it?

I don't know if the JFK was at Flight Quarters, or what but if they were the
JFK CO should have had one of the escorts shoulder the Dhow out of the way.
Maybe the escorts have forgotten how to perform this maneuver since the cold
war ended and they can't practice with the ruskie trawlers. Somehow I have
gotten the impression from what others have said, what was on the news and
in the papers, that the JFK CO, was depending on his having the right of
way.

But come to think of it (I wasn't a Black Shoe so I don't know) but doesn't
a vessel under sail have the right of way over any powered vessel?

Right of way questions, at sea or on shore, are a moot question
after the fact - except for questions about who to hang. As many
pedestrians learn every year, asserting one's right of way
against an oncoming compact, much less an SUV, is even worse than
a zero-sum game, the pedestrian is going to lose 100% of the
time. Several Chesapeake day-sailers over the years have fallen
afoul of the same thing, as they asserted their right of way over
a freighter inbound to or outbound from Bawlamer.

Still, whether or not the dhow had the right of way under the
circumstances, doesn't really matter. Last I heard the USN
frowns on its captains running into anything with their ship.
Particularly if that "anything" has been under observation for
quite a bit of time.
--
OJ III
[Email to Yahoo address may be burned before reading.
Lower and crunch the sig and you'll net me at comcast.]

"Ogden Johnson III" wrote in message

I was at the local Naval Hospital last Friday and as I was waiting for my
appointment I started to look at a recent copy of the Navy Times that
another retired old fart set down. I only looked at it for about 15
seconds
before I was called but, what I read said that the Dhow or whatever it
was
had been spotted and watched for a fairly long time.

So it wasn't a surprise "Where did that SOB come from!" type of thing.

Which would appear to be even more damning for the JFK skipper.
If his bridge crew, et al, were aware of it and "watch[ing] it
for a fairly long time", HITH did they manage to run into it?

From my 'Shoe Days (1c Middie Cruise, USS BLANDY, Summer of '67) I recall
that the Captain SHALL be notified of any vessel projected to pass within 5
nm of the ship.

Of course, it would be Bad Form to ring up the CO and say, "**** call, you
old son of bitch!" :-)

I don't know if the JFK was at Flight Quarters, or what but if they were
the
JFK CO should have had one of the escorts shoulder the Dhow out of the
way.
Maybe the escorts have forgotten how to perform this maneuver since the
cold
war ended and they can't practice with the ruskie trawlers. Somehow I
have
gotten the impression from what others have said, what was on the news
and
in the papers, that the JFK CO, was depending on his having the right of
way.

But come to think of it (I wasn't a Black Shoe so I don't know) but
doesn't
a vessel under sail have the right of way over any powered vessel?

Right of way questions, at sea or on shore, are a moot question
after the fact - except for questions about who to hang.

Indeed. But it does, or at least should, make a difference beforehand.

Never having stood OOD on a Bird Farm I don't know if the Rules of the Road
are modified during such things as FLTOPS, UNREP, etc. My very dim
recollection is, "no." But it's been many years since Navigation and
Piloting.

As many
pedestrians learn every year, asserting one's right of way
against an oncoming compact, much less an SUV, is even worse than
a zero-sum game, the pedestrian is going to lose 100% of the
time.

Ayup. Just a good way to generate a law suit.

Several Chesapeake day-sailers over the years have fallen
afoul of the same thing, as they asserted their right of way over
a freighter inbound to or outbound from Bawlamer.

Size counts, eh! :-)

Still, whether or not the dhow had the right of way under the
circumstances, doesn't really matter. Last I heard the USN
frowns on its captains running into anything with their ship.
Particularly if that "anything" has been under observation for
quite a bit of time.

Yeah, that "5 nm thing" still rattles around in my head.

Bill Kambic

Mangalarga Marchador: Uma raça, uma paixão

Bill,

Never having stood OOD on a Bird Farm I don't know if the Rules of the Road
are modified during such things as FLTOPS, UNREP, etc. My very dim
recollection is, "no." But it's been many years since Navigation and
Piloting.

Many years here, too.

Speculation: It wouldn't surprise me if certain operations like you cited
create a "burdened vessel" situation, one in which other traffic would be
obliged to steer clear despite their otherwise having the right-of-way.
This also presupposes that the burdened vessel is flying all the proper
flags, lights and shapes, and is signaling appropriately for her situation.

Still - as others have already pointed out - the above is moot if you are a
USN Skipper and your hull touches something it shouldn't.

Sidebar: Having crewed on a 34' sloop, I know the USCG is very particular
about pleasure sailing craft flying the appropriate shape (daytime) whenever
they are maneuvering under BOTH sail and power. (Inland Rules of the Road,
I think.) In these instances, the sailing craft is treated as a
non-burdened vessel and has no more right-of-way than any other motorized
watercraft. Flying the shape is necessary also because many pleasure
sailcraft have inboard engines that aren't readily apparent by distant
visual inspection.

--
Mike Kanze

"If history repeats itself, I should think we can expect the same thing
again."

- NBC softball analyst at the 2004 Summer Olympics (This one earned the Yogi
Berra Award.)


"Bill Kambic" wrote in message
...
"Ogden Johnson III" wrote in message

I was at the local Naval Hospital last Friday and as I was waiting for
my
appointment I started to look at a recent copy of the Navy Times that
another retired old fart set down. I only looked at it for about 15
seconds
before I was called but, what I read said that the Dhow or whatever it
was
had been spotted and watched for a fairly long time.

So it wasn't a surprise "Where did that SOB come from!" type of thing.

Which would appear to be even more damning for the JFK skipper.
If his bridge crew, et al, were aware of it and "watch[ing] it
for a fairly long time", HITH did they manage to run into it?

From my 'Shoe Days (1c Middie Cruise, USS BLANDY, Summer of '67) I recall
that the Captain SHALL be notified of any vessel projected to pass within
5
nm of the ship.

Of course, it would be Bad Form to ring up the CO and say, "**** call, you
old son of bitch!" :-)

I don't know if the JFK was at Flight Quarters, or what but if they were
the
JFK CO should have had one of the escorts shoulder the Dhow out of the
way.
Maybe the escorts have forgotten how to perform this maneuver since the
cold
war ended and they can't practice with the ruskie trawlers. Somehow I
have
gotten the impression from what others have said, what was on the news
and
in the papers, that the JFK CO, was depending on his having the right of
way.

But come to think of it (I wasn't a Black Shoe so I don't know) but
doesn't
a vessel under sail have the right of way over any powered vessel?

Right of way questions, at sea or on shore, are a moot question
after the fact - except for questions about who to hang.

Indeed. But it does, or at least should, make a difference beforehand.

Never having stood OOD on a Bird Farm I don't know if the Rules of the
Road
are modified during such things as FLTOPS, UNREP, etc. My very dim
recollection is, "no." But it's been many years since Navigation and
Piloting.

As many
pedestrians learn every year, asserting one's right of way
against an oncoming compact, much less an SUV, is even worse than
a zero-sum game, the pedestrian is going to lose 100% of the
time.

Ayup. Just a good way to generate a law suit.

Several Chesapeake day-sailers over the years have fallen
afoul of the same thing, as they asserted their right of way over
a freighter inbound to or outbound from Bawlamer.

Size counts, eh! :-)

Still, whether or not the dhow had the right of way under the
circumstances, doesn't really matter. Last I heard the USN
frowns on its captains running into anything with their ship.
Particularly if that "anything" has been under observation for
quite a bit of time.

Yeah, that "5 nm thing" still rattles around in my head.

Bill Kambic

Mangalarga Marchador: Uma raça, uma paixão

"Mike Kanze" wrote in message

Never having stood OOD on a Bird Farm I don't know if the Rules of the
Road
are modified during such things as FLTOPS, UNREP, etc. My very dim
recollection is, "no." But it's been many years since Navigation and
Piloting.

Many years here, too.

Speculation: It wouldn't surprise me if certain operations like you cited
create a "burdened vessel" situation, one in which other traffic would be
obliged to steer clear despite their otherwise having the right-of-way.
This also presupposes that the burdened vessel is flying all the proper
flags, lights and shapes, and is signaling appropriately for her
situation.

Could be. I just don't remember.

No 'Shoes about, eh? :-)

While we are on the subject of "hearsay sea stories" I stood Shore Patrol
Officer one night in Greenoch, Scotland. It was a pretty good deal, as I
got to have dinner at the RN Officer's Mess and they made the Yank pretty
welcome. One of the RN LTs told a story about HMS ARK ROYAL (we had just
completed some ops with that ship and USS INDEPENDANCE).

He said he was OOD one day during an UNREP. All was going smoothly, when
their AGI decided to play "chicken of the sea." He ran a couple of miles
ahead of the oiler and carrier, then reversed course, putting himself in the
position of privelegded vessel. His intent was run between the oiler and
carrier, causing an emergency breakaway (creates quite a mess, I am told,
when done with NSFO flowing in the pipes). The Captain had just entered the
bridge as the AGI started his run. The LT, who had the deck was about to
order an emergency breakaway when he heard the Captain say, "This is the
Captain, I have the con." He looked at the CO, who was staring straight
ahead. He asked the Captain if he wanted to secure pumping and the Captain
said, "No." By now the AGI was committed and ran between the two ships,
resulting in a Very Near Miss. Of course, as the AGI proceeded bewteen, he
parted four fuel lines, all charged. The AGI turned from a pretty shade of
white and gray to a VERY dirty brown. Mast head to water line. Stem to
stern.

(For those of you not familiar with Navy Standard Fuel Oil, it is a tar-like
stuff that must be heated to flow. When cooled it has the consistency of a
very sticky asphalt.)

The Captain then immediately ordered a helo launched to take pictures. He
returned the con to the LT and retired to his sea cabin.

For the next week or so the deck apes on that AGI had quite a cleanup
problem. There were photos on the wall in the bar.

Still - as others have already pointed out - the above is moot if you are
a
USN Skipper and your hull touches something it shouldn't.

Amen.

Sidebar: Having crewed on a 34' sloop, I know the USCG is very particular
about pleasure sailing craft flying the appropriate shape (daytime)
whenever
they are maneuvering under BOTH sail and power. (Inland Rules of the
Road,
I think.) In these instances, the sailing craft is treated as a
non-burdened vessel and has no more right-of-way than any other motorized
watercraft. Flying the shape is necessary also because many pleasure
sailcraft have inboard engines that aren't readily apparent by distant
visual inspection.

This is just one more reason that I will stick with houseboats on Watts Bar
Lake. ;-)

Bill Kambic

Mangalarga Marchador: Uma raça, uma paixão

In article , says...
"Mike Kanze" wrote in message

Never having stood OOD on a Bird Farm I don't know if the Rules of the
Road
are modified during such things as FLTOPS, UNREP, etc. My very dim
recollection is, "no." But it's been many years since Navigation and
Piloting.

Many years here, too.

Speculation: It wouldn't surprise me if certain operations like you cited
create a "burdened vessel" situation, one in which other traffic would be
obliged to steer clear despite their otherwise having the right-of-way.
This also presupposes that the burdened vessel is flying all the proper
flags, lights and shapes, and is signaling appropriately for her
situation.

Could be. I just don't remember.

No 'Shoes about, eh? :-)

Not a Black shoe, but here is my experience as OOD of USS Abraham
Lincoln from the 2000-02 time period.

The ship should have been flying Ball-Diamond-Ball or the appropriate
lights to show that the huge gray ship launching and recovering aircraft
was "Restricted in its ability to manuver." That means that the
carrier, according to the Rules of the Road for international waters,
has the right of way except for vessels adrift/not under command or
anchored. The dhow, even if actively engaged in fishing or under sail
power should have done everything practicable to avoid the collision.

During my OOD board, the XO asked a very similar question. My answer
was that the OOD should have advised the CO to suspend flight ops,
manuver the ship to avoid the CBDR(constant bearing, decreasing range)
situation, got back into the wind envelope ASAP, and continued on. CIC
and the TOP (tactical ops plot, usually ran by an OS1 who acts as a go
between with the TAO and the OOD) should have noticed the dhow long
before the Junior Officer of the Watch located him on his surface search
radar or visually. Visual range from the bridge of a CVN is usually
about 10-12nm and most lights for night can be seen anywhere from 3-6nm.

The dhows in the Gulf are pretty fearless. They operate among the
Supertankers and other commerical shipping, plus all the US Navy ships,
day in and day out. They can be a real pain when they want to be. From
my experience, the plane guard helo or another BG asset should have
warned them away and with everything up to warning shots or more once
the dhow broke the CO's comfort zone.(Obviously different for individual
CO's, but we took notice at 8nm, started getting nervous at 5nm, manned
the .50cal at 2nm and would have started with warning shots for 1nm)

BTW, an OOD board is something not to be missed. You are in a room with
the CO, XO, Reactor Officer, Navigator, Air Boss, and usually the Cheng.
You are quizzed on everything about the ship and its mission. Air ops,
ship handling, reactor plant operation and emergencies, flight deck ops,
damage control, ships systems, etc...If everything goes well, it can be
as short as 20-30 minutes or if you have trouble, 90+ minutes or they
tell you to go study and try again. Mine lasted about 50 minutes and I
was spent we it was over. Pretty heady stuff for a newly pinned LTjg.

Like I said, I don't know the whole story, just what I read in Navy
Times. So there may be something else we, or I, don't know about.

--LT H.
Naval Advancement Center DivO.

"LT Steven J Henderson" wrote in message

snipped for brevity

Thanks for the very cogent and up to date explanation! ;-)

Bill Kambic

Mangalarga Marchador: Uma raça, uma paixão

In message , LT Steven J
Henderson writes

snip

The ship should have been flying Ball-Diamond-Ball or the appropriate
lights to show that the huge gray ship launching and recovering aircraft
was "Restricted in its ability to manuver." That means that the
carrier, according to the Rules of the Road for international waters,
has the right of way except for vessels adrift/not under command or
anchored. The dhow, even if actively engaged in fishing or under sail
power should have done everything practicable to avoid the collision.

Would you expect the skipper/owner of a fishing dhow to know the rules
to the detail that you know them? Or even any rules?

Mike

"M. J. Powell" wrote in message

The ship should have been flying Ball-Diamond-Ball or the appropriate
lights to show that the huge gray ship launching and recovering aircraft
was "Restricted in its ability to manuver." That means that the
carrier, according to the Rules of the Road for international waters,
has the right of way except for vessels adrift/not under command or
anchored. The dhow, even if actively engaged in fishing or under sail
power should have done everything practicable to avoid the collision.

Would you expect the skipper/owner of a fishing dhow to know the rules
to the detail that you know them? Or even any rules?

He/she is charged with knowing them, even if they do not. If the carrier CO
followed the rules and still had a loss then he might walk away. If there
were any deviations on the part of the carrier crew or CO then the CO is
probably toast.

Bill Kambic

Mangalarga Marchador: Uma raça, uma paixão


Mike

Very helpful and informative, especially to those of us 30+ years out of the
cockpit or off the bridge.

--
Mike Kanze

"If history repeats itself, I should think we can expect the same thing
again."

- NBC softball analyst at the 2004 Summer Olympics (This one earned the Yogi
Berra Award.)


"LT Steven J Henderson" wrote in message
. ..
[rest snipped]