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Why GA is Dying



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 22nd 06, 07:52 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Kyle Boatright
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Posts: 578
Default Why GA is Dying

After I landed from this morning's flight, a young guy (maybe 18 or 20 years
old) came over, complimented my airplane and asked if he could take some
pictures. Of course, I was flattered and told him to shoot away. He hung
around and we talked for 20 minutes or more as I wiped down the airplane for
bugs, cleaned the canopy, etc.. Turns out, he has his "ultralight pilot's
license? (???) and is about ready to start training for his PPSEL. Nice
guy.

Once I took care of a few things (and the airplane cooled), I taxied over to
the wash stand and gave the RV a nice bath. - Can't go to Oshkosh with a
dirty airplane. The young guy from before happed to be over by the wash
stand with his camera, so we had another conversation as I was washing the
airplane.

In the middle of this, one of the employees from the FBO came over and asked
the guy to go to the FBO and present his photo ID so the FBO would know who
is making pictures at the airport. I steped in and asked where this
requirement came from, and the FBO guy hemmed and hawed, saying that he
thought it came from the airport authority. I asked if he could show me the
requirement in writing. He hemmed and hawed some more, and never could
answer the question. The FBO guy said that people didn't like having others
make pictures of their airplanes. (Huh??) Like, who? I asked. Again, no
good response.

I'll verify this with the FBO owner and the airport authority on Monday, but
no way, no how, is there a "must present an ID before taking pictures"
policy at my home field. Someone at the FBO didn't have anything to do and
decided to play "big man on campus" for fun.

So, what does this have to do with the slow death of GA? It has to do with
the attitudes around some airports. Today's 20 year old picture taker will
be tomorrow's private pilot who'll be paying for flying lessons, gasoline,
etc. and will eventually rent aircraft or own his own airplane. That is, if
he wasn't put-off by the FBO. In which case, that's one more person who had
his dream squashed, and will never become a pilot. Given the sharp decline
in the number of pilots in the US, it amazes me how unfriendly FBO's can be.
You'd think they would be out begging for business. Naah. It must be far
more productive to run off prospective customers. No wonder there are so few
new pilots.

FYI, my home field is just outside of Atlanta. Go one airport farther away
from Atlanta in any direction and you'll get great service by very friendly
people. Go to any of the airports closer to the city and they will
practically beg you to leave unless your aircraft is turbine powered. I'd
bet those unfriendly airports turn a lot of people from potential pilots to
boat or Harley owners.

By the way, the 20 year old guy did go inside the FBO and present his ID.
His choice, and a nice gesture. I thought a different gesture might have
been appropriate.

KB



  #2  
Old July 22nd 06, 09:16 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Stubby
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 117
Default Why GA is Dying

Nobody is forcing you to use that FBO. Frankly, I like the idea of
them keeping tabs on people hanging around planes they are responsible
for. If I owned a plane, I might seek out a place like that.


Kyle Boatright wrote:
After I landed from this morning's flight, a young guy (maybe 18 or 20 years
old) came over, complimented my airplane and asked if he could take some
pictures. Of course, I was flattered and told him to shoot away. He hung
around and we talked for 20 minutes or more as I wiped down the airplane for
bugs, cleaned the canopy, etc.. Turns out, he has his "ultralight pilot's
license? (???) and is about ready to start training for his PPSEL. Nice
guy.

Once I took care of a few things (and the airplane cooled), I taxied over to
the wash stand and gave the RV a nice bath. - Can't go to Oshkosh with a
dirty airplane. The young guy from before happed to be over by the wash
stand with his camera, so we had another conversation as I was washing the
airplane.

In the middle of this, one of the employees from the FBO came over and asked
the guy to go to the FBO and present his photo ID so the FBO would know who
is making pictures at the airport. I steped in and asked where this
requirement came from, and the FBO guy hemmed and hawed, saying that he
thought it came from the airport authority. I asked if he could show me the
requirement in writing. He hemmed and hawed some more, and never could
answer the question. The FBO guy said that people didn't like having others
make pictures of their airplanes. (Huh??) Like, who? I asked. Again, no
good response.

I'll verify this with the FBO owner and the airport authority on Monday, but
no way, no how, is there a "must present an ID before taking pictures"
policy at my home field. Someone at the FBO didn't have anything to do and
decided to play "big man on campus" for fun.

So, what does this have to do with the slow death of GA? It has to do with
the attitudes around some airports. Today's 20 year old picture taker will
be tomorrow's private pilot who'll be paying for flying lessons, gasoline,
etc. and will eventually rent aircraft or own his own airplane. That is, if
he wasn't put-off by the FBO. In which case, that's one more person who had
his dream squashed, and will never become a pilot. Given the sharp decline
in the number of pilots in the US, it amazes me how unfriendly FBO's can be.
You'd think they would be out begging for business. Naah. It must be far
more productive to run off prospective customers. No wonder there are so few
new pilots.

FYI, my home field is just outside of Atlanta. Go one airport farther away
from Atlanta in any direction and you'll get great service by very friendly
people. Go to any of the airports closer to the city and they will
practically beg you to leave unless your aircraft is turbine powered. I'd
bet those unfriendly airports turn a lot of people from potential pilots to
boat or Harley owners.

By the way, the 20 year old guy did go inside the FBO and present his ID.
His choice, and a nice gesture. I thought a different gesture might have
been appropriate.

KB



  #3  
Old July 22nd 06, 09:38 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Michael Ware
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 37
Default Why GA is Dying


"Stubby" wrote in message
...
Frankly, I like the idea of
them keeping tabs on people hanging around planes they are responsible
for. If I owned a plane, I might seek out a place like that.


Yup, our FBO requires ID for those that enter the ramp thru the FBO. I
think it's a small inconvenience for the step up in security. If people know
they can walk in off the street without question, that's where some trouble
could start.


  #4  
Old July 22nd 06, 09:55 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Dudley Henriques[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 135
Default Why GA is Dying

This type of post is of course an opinion post and as such should be
respected in that context.
My personal opinion on this is that you are either going to have airport
security or you're not..period!
You can parse the "my rights are being violated" thing to death, and you can
complain about the inconvenience till you're blue in the face, but the
bottom line is simply that you can't have it both ways.
9-11 happened. It just "ain't" the same world any more. You can bash
politicians. You can bash political parties. You can holler about the way
its all being done. But the bottom line remains the same. You either have
security or you don't.
Again, personally, if its my airplane that's sitting out there on the line,
or inside that hangar, or even your airplane out there, I damn well want the
FBO involved to take some interest in who's out there taking pictures of
everything.
Just my read on it. Don't mean it to be argumentative :-))
Dudley Henriques

"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
. ..
After I landed from this morning's flight, a young guy (maybe 18 or 20
years old) came over, complimented my airplane and asked if he could take
some pictures. Of course, I was flattered and told him to shoot away. He
hung around and we talked for 20 minutes or more as I wiped down the
airplane for bugs, cleaned the canopy, etc.. Turns out, he has his
"ultralight pilot's license? (???) and is about ready to start training
for his PPSEL. Nice guy.

Once I took care of a few things (and the airplane cooled), I taxied over
to the wash stand and gave the RV a nice bath. - Can't go to Oshkosh with
a dirty airplane. The young guy from before happed to be over by the wash
stand with his camera, so we had another conversation as I was washing the
airplane.

In the middle of this, one of the employees from the FBO came over and
asked the guy to go to the FBO and present his photo ID so the FBO would
know who is making pictures at the airport. I steped in and asked where
this requirement came from, and the FBO guy hemmed and hawed, saying that
he thought it came from the airport authority. I asked if he could show
me the requirement in writing. He hemmed and hawed some more, and never
could answer the question. The FBO guy said that people didn't like
having others make pictures of their airplanes. (Huh??) Like, who? I
asked. Again, no good response.

I'll verify this with the FBO owner and the airport authority on Monday,
but no way, no how, is there a "must present an ID before taking pictures"
policy at my home field. Someone at the FBO didn't have anything to do and
decided to play "big man on campus" for fun.

So, what does this have to do with the slow death of GA? It has to do
with the attitudes around some airports. Today's 20 year old picture taker
will be tomorrow's private pilot who'll be paying for flying lessons,
gasoline, etc. and will eventually rent aircraft or own his own airplane.
That is, if he wasn't put-off by the FBO. In which case, that's one more
person who had his dream squashed, and will never become a pilot. Given
the sharp decline in the number of pilots in the US, it amazes me how
unfriendly FBO's can be. You'd think they would be out begging for
business. Naah. It must be far more productive to run off prospective
customers. No wonder there are so few new pilots.

FYI, my home field is just outside of Atlanta. Go one airport farther
away from Atlanta in any direction and you'll get great service by very
friendly people. Go to any of the airports closer to the city and they
will practically beg you to leave unless your aircraft is turbine powered.
I'd bet those unfriendly airports turn a lot of people from potential
pilots to boat or Harley owners.

By the way, the 20 year old guy did go inside the FBO and present his ID.
His choice, and a nice gesture. I thought a different gesture might have
been appropriate.

KB





  #5  
Old July 22nd 06, 10:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Emily[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 632
Default Why GA is Dying

Kyle Boatright wrote:
snip

September 11 or not, customer service at flight schools and FBOs has
gone down the tubes. I can't tell you the number of times I've been
blown off when I go in to rent an airplane. They have no way of knowing
WHO I am, and when I walk in and am just handed a rental sheet and
brushed off, they might have just lost a potential student.

Then there was the guy at one FBO who wouldn't let me back on the ramp
to my plane because I didn't have ID. ID was in the purse, in the
backseat on the airplane. I'm not sure if they wanted the airplane
sitting permanently on their ramp or not.

Anyway, I'm not sure anyone even cares about the survival of general
aviation. I just hope the airlines survive, or I'm out of a job. Ick.
  #6  
Old July 22nd 06, 10:19 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Maule Driver
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 80
Default Why GA is Dying

A slightly different context and it's just good airport security.... a
local news outlet decides that they need an airport security story and
sends a reporter out to the local strip to investigate. He walks on the
ramp and starts taking photos and asking questions. This isn't
hypothetical because it happened at my home 'port.

However, before the guy got far, he was challenged by 2 different
resident/pilots. He actually never got a chance to investigate because
he was interrogated first, "so, can anyone just drive up and walk on? I
don't see a fence" says the reporter. "Obviously not, we keep an eye on
things (even though this is just a private grass strip), so what exactly
are you looking for"

But I do know how you feel. I never like to be stopped or questioned
but you have to pick your battles and choose your spots while
maintaining some perspective. I don't think this has anything to do
with GA's problems. I'm not even sure we have problems; this is the
best place on the planet to fly. We may have some challenges and
perhaps this incident addresses a few of them.

Kyle Boatright wrote:
After I landed from this morning's flight, a young guy (maybe 18 or 20 years
old) came over, complimented my airplane and asked if he could take some
pictures. Of course, I was flattered and told him to shoot away. He hung
around and we talked for 20 minutes or more as I wiped down the airplane for
bugs, cleaned the canopy, etc.. Turns out, he has his "ultralight pilot's
license? (???) and is about ready to start training for his PPSEL. Nice
guy.

Once I took care of a few things (and the airplane cooled), I taxied over to
the wash stand and gave the RV a nice bath. - Can't go to Oshkosh with a
dirty airplane. The young guy from before happed to be over by the wash
stand with his camera, so we had another conversation as I was washing the
airplane.

In the middle of this, one of the employees from the FBO came over and asked
the guy to go to the FBO and present his photo ID so the FBO would know who
is making pictures at the airport. I steped in and asked where this
requirement came from, and the FBO guy hemmed and hawed, saying that he
thought it came from the airport authority. I asked if he could show me the
requirement in writing. He hemmed and hawed some more, and never could
answer the question. The FBO guy said that people didn't like having others
make pictures of their airplanes. (Huh??) Like, who? I asked. Again, no
good response.

I'll verify this with the FBO owner and the airport authority on Monday, but
no way, no how, is there a "must present an ID before taking pictures"
policy at my home field. Someone at the FBO didn't have anything to do and
decided to play "big man on campus" for fun.

So, what does this have to do with the slow death of GA? It has to do with
the attitudes around some airports. Today's 20 year old picture taker will
be tomorrow's private pilot who'll be paying for flying lessons, gasoline,
etc. and will eventually rent aircraft or own his own airplane. That is, if
he wasn't put-off by the FBO. In which case, that's one more person who had
his dream squashed, and will never become a pilot. Given the sharp decline
in the number of pilots in the US, it amazes me how unfriendly FBO's can be.
You'd think they would be out begging for business. Naah. It must be far
more productive to run off prospective customers. No wonder there are so few
new pilots.

FYI, my home field is just outside of Atlanta. Go one airport farther away
from Atlanta in any direction and you'll get great service by very friendly
people. Go to any of the airports closer to the city and they will
practically beg you to leave unless your aircraft is turbine powered. I'd
bet those unfriendly airports turn a lot of people from potential pilots to
boat or Harley owners.

By the way, the 20 year old guy did go inside the FBO and present his ID.
His choice, and a nice gesture. I thought a different gesture might have
been appropriate.

KB



  #7  
Old July 22nd 06, 10:36 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Kyle Boatright
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 578
Default Why GA is Dying


"Stubby" wrote in message
...
Nobody is forcing you to use that FBO. Frankly, I like the idea of them
keeping tabs on people hanging around planes they are responsible for. If
I owned a plane, I might seek out a place like that.


They are not keeping tabs on people hanging around the airport. There are 2
gates to the ramp and both are wide open all day. The gates are not
monitored. Automobiles are allowed on the ramp. Bikes are allowed on the
ramp. People are allowed on the ramp. No ID, no anything other than an
active GA community to keep an eye on things during the day. At night, one
gate is open and there is a security person around.

I'm fine with that. I don't need/want big brother at the airport. I don't
want to have to sign in or card in or have to meet guests at a security
gate. That kind of security just isn't necessary at a GA field.

The issue today was that the kid was taking pictures instead of just
pointing and talking. Why you'd need to have an ID to take pictures (as
opposed to walking the ramp or driving on the ramp) is unknowable. And, why
someone with the FBO would fabricate a rule about having a photo ID to take
pictures is bizzarre.

KB





  #8  
Old July 22nd 06, 10:54 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Jim Macklin
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,070
Default Why GA is Dying

Years ago I was talking with Bill Sweet [Air Show America]
and he told me a story about something that happened to him.
He was flying to an air show and stopped for the night and
put his plane in a hanger and the operator, a friend of his
let him stay over-night in the hanger with his airplane.
During the night he said he heard a DC3 taxiing on the
airport and looked to see what was going on. He then went
back to sleep.
The next morning there were more than a dozen airplanes
sitting on the ramp, firewall forward missing and the
avionics were all taken. Later the DC3 was caught and they
had rigged a canvas and chain hoist on a rail out the door.
They'd taxi near a Bonanza or C210 and if the couldn't steal
the airplane, they'd use power saws or cutting torches to
remove the parts they wanted.

Drug smugglers, plain thieves, and terrorists all want your
airplane. But we need to still be able to have airport
kids, lookers, and future students feel welcome.The major
airports have bigger budgets and more threats. Should we
all carry a dozen official government ID cards? I hope not.
But a digital camera [or Polaroid] can take a picture of the
people who are allowed on the ramp. It is just security,
everybody on the ramp needs to be escorted or instructed in
safety around airplanes, prop/jet blast, danger zones for
props and rotors, nothing will get your airport closed
faster than a headline, Toddler Killed by Private Plane's
Propeller.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
. ..
|
| "Stubby" wrote in
message
| ...
| Nobody is forcing you to use that FBO. Frankly, I like
the idea of them
| keeping tabs on people hanging around planes they are
responsible for. If
| I owned a plane, I might seek out a place like that.
|
|
| They are not keeping tabs on people hanging around the
airport. There are 2
| gates to the ramp and both are wide open all day. The
gates are not
| monitored. Automobiles are allowed on the ramp. Bikes are
allowed on the
| ramp. People are allowed on the ramp. No ID, no anything
other than an
| active GA community to keep an eye on things during the
day. At night, one
| gate is open and there is a security person around.
|
| I'm fine with that. I don't need/want big brother at the
airport. I don't
| want to have to sign in or card in or have to meet guests
at a security
| gate. That kind of security just isn't necessary at a GA
field.
|
| The issue today was that the kid was taking pictures
instead of just
| pointing and talking. Why you'd need to have an ID to
take pictures (as
| opposed to walking the ramp or driving on the ramp) is
unknowable. And, why
| someone with the FBO would fabricate a rule about having a
photo ID to take
| pictures is bizzarre.
|
| KB
|
|
|
|
|


  #9  
Old July 22nd 06, 10:55 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Kyle Boatright
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 578
Default Why GA is Dying


"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
k.net...
This type of post is of course an opinion post and as such should be
respected in that context.
My personal opinion on this is that you are either going to have airport
security or you're not..period!


Bingo. Bothering somone taking pictures doesn't make sense when the field
has minimal, if any security. E.G. my home field. They don't ID pilots or
passengers - even transients. Presumably folks in an airplane are bigger
threats than people taking pictures, so why does the buck stop with a kid
taking pictures?

What I see with most not all of the "security" procedures we face today is
that they inconvenience the innocent folks, but would have no impact on an
actual threat. A great example is the TFR around a sporting event. Anything
with wings could penetrate the TFR. Unless it is the Superbowl or World
Series, there won't be anything in place to stop even a C-150 if somebody
wanted to use one to create mayhem. The TFR is eyewash.

Same thing with getting the ID of a kid taking pictures. It doesn't stop
someone from taking pictures. Nor would it stop him if he was up to no-good.

That said, the point I was trying to make is that the FBO employee (or his
boss) pulled this "rule" out of his you-know-what. An excellent example of
how to drive off a prospective client. The kind of client who is sorely
needed by GA if it is going to survive another 50 years.

KB






  #10  
Old July 22nd 06, 11:08 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Andrew Sarangan[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 187
Default Why GA is Dying

Dudley


The only true security would be to check ids and run it through an FBI
computer for each client who gets on the ramp, including landing
aircraft, which means all pilots and passengers must obtain this
permission ahead of time. As far as I know, there is no such airport. A
terrorist can take off from his private airstrip and land at JFK, OHare
etc..

Airport security is all for show. It targets the legitimate pilot and
his family. At our home airport after 9/11 they installed a perimeter
fence at the cost of several millions. All it did was increase the deer
population inside the fence and screw up the localizer signal which
increased the approach minimums. Even an overweight American can jump
across the fence, let alone a lean and mean middleeastern terrorist.

Now it would be different if the person was loading suspicious looking
objects into a suspicous looking aircraft. But a guy taking pictures of
an airplane? Come on.

I totally agree with the OP. Many eons ago I used to hang out at the
airport taking pictures of airplanes. Even the big jets landing at big
airports. If I had been chased away I very well might have been turned
off from this whole aviation thing.



Dudley Henriques wrote:
This type of post is of course an opinion post and as such should be
respected in that context.
My personal opinion on this is that you are either going to have airport
security or you're not..period!
You can parse the "my rights are being violated" thing to death, and you can
complain about the inconvenience till you're blue in the face, but the
bottom line is simply that you can't have it both ways.
9-11 happened. It just "ain't" the same world any more. You can bash
politicians. You can bash political parties. You can holler about the way
its all being done. But the bottom line remains the same. You either have
security or you don't.
Again, personally, if its my airplane that's sitting out there on the line,
or inside that hangar, or even your airplane out there, I damn well want the
FBO involved to take some interest in who's out there taking pictures of
everything.
Just my read on it. Don't mean it to be argumentative :-))
Dudley Henriques


 




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