Possibly the stupidest idea ever...

I thought we were talking about insurance in general, and my comments
addressed several aspects of insurance.

That said, I've think made my point and don't see much use in arguing with
you. We can simply agree to disagree.

KB


"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...
If you are seeing an exclusion like "not routinely operated off of unpaved
surfaces" you are looking at a hull damage policy, not a liability policy.
May I suggest you take a look at your liability policy, as that is what is
being discussed?

"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
...
Bill,

Read Alexy's post. It does an excellent job of filling in what I left
unsaid, because I thought it was apparent. I'll add a few more notes
inside
your post...

KB

"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...
Sorry, but you are just totally wrong!

Every insurance policy I have ever read has a section called something
like
"Limitations And Exclusions". It's a list of activities that if
engaged
in,
the insurance policy is null and void; they will not pay. And in the
GA
world, it will frequently include such things as aerobatics and
formation
flying.

Yep, my note said "something not prohibited by insurance." I think that
covers it, although I've never seen a policy that prohibits formation
flight
or aerobatics (presuming the aircraft has the proper certification). If
you
have, where/who/what insurance company? I believe the most common
exclusion
is related to named pilots or pilots with X time in type. I've seen that
one
a few times. Also, my current policy says something to the effect of
"not
routinely operated off of unpaved surfaces". That doesn't mean "can't
land
on a grass strip", but I'd certainly be outside the restrictions of my
policy if I was based at a grass field. If I was based at a grass strip
and
pranged the airplane, it is conceivable that the insurance company could
refuse to pay.



And I don't know who you think it is that decides whether an insurance
company pays a claim or not, but it is, in fact, the insurance
company.
If
you think they wrongly refused to pay you can sue them and take them
to
court, but you will probably lose.

If you drive your car 100 mph on the wrong side of the road and kill
someone, your insurance pays. Airplane insurance is more or less the
same.
The two fundamental assumptions (less exclusions) in any insurance
contract
are 1) You will try to prevent accidents. 2) If/when you have one, the
insurance company will pay.



And what do you think happens if you are judged at fault in an
accident
and
your insurance doesn't pay? In most jurisdictions the injured party
can
take
your house, your car(s), your business (if you have one), and they can
place
a judgment on your wages. How long do you think it would take you to
pay
off
five or ten million dollars?

Read the NTSB reports. 90% of 'em are pilot error and the insurance
company
pays up. Nobody plans to screw up, but it happens. That's why we buy
insurance. Who'd buy insurance if the insurance company wouldn't pay
when
someone screws up?



And just because something is legal doesn't mean your insuror has to
pay
if
you found liable in an accident.

And given the judgment you've shown in this post, "what YOU deem safe"
scares the **** out of me.

This is getting awfully close to a personal attack, so take it
careful...
I
deem it safe (or unsafe) every time I open the hangar doors. Sometimes
I
fly, sometimes I don't. I'm not averse to cancelling a trip if I don't
like
it. I've done it more than a few times. Also, I'm not averse to flying
in
MVFR or when the FSS says "VFR not recommended", if I judge it to be
safe.
That's the responsiblitiy of the pilot - to use his or her judgement to
make
the right choices - go/no go, over/under, 3 point/wheel, slips
with/without
flaps. You get the idea. Bottom line, every time you leave the ground
in
an airplane, there is some risk. It is up to the pilot to minimize
those
risks by flying in a manner and in conditions that are within the
capabilities of the pilot/airplane combination.





"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
...
Let's see... Pilots are doing something legal, something not
prohibited
by
their insurance, and the insurance company has the authority to
decide
whether or not to pay if there is a claim? Nope. The insurance
pays.
Usually, they pay even if the pilot(s) were doing something illegal
or
stupid.

Don't let fear of insurance companies prohibit you from doing things
that
are legal and that you deem safe.

KB

On 2004-08-23 19:16, Paul Tomblin wrote:
One of the guys who founded our flying club 40+ years ago is still a
member. He's got a lot of experience, but quite frankly some things I've
heard about him scare the hell out of me. But nothing quite as bad as
this: He's proposing that the club does a "Missing Man Formation" over
Bill Law's memorial service next weekend.

Let me get this straight, you're going to get four guys who've never flown
formation with each other before, put them in four dissimilar aircraft
(try and find a speed where both the Lance and the Warrior are happy), and
fly a maneuver in close formation with only a week to practice?

What a great way to remember Bill Law - by having a fatal 4 plane mid-air
collision over his memorial service! Oh well, at least the club would get
some new planes out of it. Too bad we'd never get insurance again, and the
club officers would be put in jail for not stopping this lunatic. Oh wait,
I'm a club officer!

I wonder if we've got time to pass a bylaw expelling anybody who tries
close formation work in club planes?


I'd say it's a bit too optimistic.

Of course, it's not impossible, but you need some training flying
formation in dissimilar planes, in order for the display to look good.

My club has an airshow team (Skybirds, all ladies) flying 4-6 PA-28:s
(the same ones used for normal schooling) in formation, but they have
been at it since -91, and they began with good help from an ex AF
instructor.

ESCN/Rolf

If you or your club members do not have the proficiency and skill that is
necessary for formation flight, then "yes" it is dumb. Training and practice
will help. Formation flying is about control and learning this skill will
help in all aspects of flying.

A couple of years ago, nine airplanes on our field flew the missing man for
Gordon Brock, a WWII veteran, a Korean War veteran and a Vietnam veteran.
When he retired, he used his IA to help a lot of folks keep flying
affordable and safe and was rewarded with the Charles Taylor Award.

The airplanes involved ranged from 65 hp taildraggers to three Cessna 414s.
Mr. Brock had personally laid hands on each of these aircraft.

It was my finest flying hour and one of the most spiritual experiences of my
life. It was the least we could do for an old soldier.

Deb

BTW, other than a terrorist hijacking the airplane, damage caused by war and
flying to Alaska or Mexico (must be purchased separately) there are no
exclusions in our full coverage policies.
--
1946 Luscombe 8A (His)
1948 Luscombe 8E (Hers)
1954 Cessna 195B, restoring (Ours)
Jasper, Ga. (JZP)

"Paul Tomblin" wrote in message
...
One of the guys who founded our flying club 40+ years ago is still a
member. He's got a lot of experience, but quite frankly some things I've
heard about him scare the hell out of me. But nothing quite as bad as
this: He's proposing that the club does a "Missing Man Formation" over
Bill Law's memorial service next weekend.

Fair enough...



"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
...
I thought we were talking about insurance in general, and my comments
addressed several aspects of insurance.

That said, I've think made my point and don't see much use in arguing with
you. We can simply agree to disagree.

KB


"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...
If you are seeing an exclusion like "not routinely operated off of
unpaved
surfaces" you are looking at a hull damage policy, not a liability
policy.
May I suggest you take a look at your liability policy, as that is what
is
being discussed?

"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
...
Bill,

Read Alexy's post. It does an excellent job of filling in what I left
unsaid, because I thought it was apparent. I'll add a few more notes
inside
your post...

KB

"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...
Sorry, but you are just totally wrong!

Every insurance policy I have ever read has a section called
something
like
"Limitations And Exclusions". It's a list of activities that if
engaged
in,
the insurance policy is null and void; they will not pay. And in the
GA
world, it will frequently include such things as aerobatics and
formation
flying.

Yep, my note said "something not prohibited by insurance." I think
that
covers it, although I've never seen a policy that prohibits formation
flight
or aerobatics (presuming the aircraft has the proper certification).
If
you
have, where/who/what insurance company? I believe the most common
exclusion
is related to named pilots or pilots with X time in type. I've seen
that
one
a few times. Also, my current policy says something to the effect of
"not
routinely operated off of unpaved surfaces". That doesn't mean "can't
land
on a grass strip", but I'd certainly be outside the restrictions of my
policy if I was based at a grass field. If I was based at a grass
strip
and
pranged the airplane, it is conceivable that the insurance company
could
refuse to pay.



And I don't know who you think it is that decides whether an
insurance
company pays a claim or not, but it is, in fact, the insurance
company.
If
you think they wrongly refused to pay you can sue them and take them
to
court, but you will probably lose.

If you drive your car 100 mph on the wrong side of the road and kill
someone, your insurance pays. Airplane insurance is more or less the
same.
The two fundamental assumptions (less exclusions) in any insurance
contract
are 1) You will try to prevent accidents. 2) If/when you have one,
the
insurance company will pay.



And what do you think happens if you are judged at fault in an
accident
and
your insurance doesn't pay? In most jurisdictions the injured party
can
take
your house, your car(s), your business (if you have one), and they
can
place
a judgment on your wages. How long do you think it would take you to
pay
off
five or ten million dollars?

Read the NTSB reports. 90% of 'em are pilot error and the insurance
company
pays up. Nobody plans to screw up, but it happens. That's why we buy
insurance. Who'd buy insurance if the insurance company wouldn't pay
when
someone screws up?



And just because something is legal doesn't mean your insuror has to
pay
if
you found liable in an accident.

And given the judgment you've shown in this post, "what YOU deem
safe"
scares the **** out of me.

This is getting awfully close to a personal attack, so take it
careful...
I
deem it safe (or unsafe) every time I open the hangar doors.
Sometimes
I
fly, sometimes I don't. I'm not averse to cancelling a trip if I don't
like
it. I've done it more than a few times. Also, I'm not averse to flying
in
MVFR or when the FSS says "VFR not recommended", if I judge it to be
safe.
That's the responsiblitiy of the pilot - to use his or her judgement
to
make
the right choices - go/no go, over/under, 3 point/wheel, slips
with/without
flaps. You get the idea. Bottom line, every time you leave the
ground
in
an airplane, there is some risk. It is up to the pilot to minimize
those
risks by flying in a manner and in conditions that are within the
capabilities of the pilot/airplane combination.





"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
...
Let's see... Pilots are doing something legal, something not
prohibited
by
their insurance, and the insurance company has the authority to
decide
whether or not to pay if there is a claim? Nope. The insurance
pays.
Usually, they pay even if the pilot(s) were doing something
illegal
or
stupid.

Don't let fear of insurance companies prohibit you from doing
things
that
are legal and that you deem safe.

KB

(Paul Tomblin) wrote in
:

One of the guys who founded our flying club 40+ years ago is still a
member. He's got a lot of experience, but quite frankly some things
I've heard about him scare the hell out of me. But nothing quite as
bad as this: He's proposing that the club does a "Missing Man
Formation" over Bill Law's memorial service next weekend.

Let me get this straight, you're going to get four guys who've never
flown formation with each other before, put them in four dissimilar
aircraft (try and find a speed where both the Lance and the Warrior
are happy), and fly a maneuver in close formation with only a week to
practice?

What a great way to remember Bill Law - by having a fatal 4 plane
mid-air collision over his memorial service! Oh well, at least the
club would get some new planes out of it. Too bad we'd never get
insurance again, and the club officers would be put in jail for not
stopping this lunatic. Oh wait, I'm a club officer!

I wonder if we've got time to pass a bylaw expelling anybody who tries
close formation work in club planes?


Paul, I beleave you will find that the QB are going to do the missing
man flight. So don't worry, they have had a little to much practis at
this over the last few years........

In a previous article, you k who said:
Paul, I beleave you will find that the QB are going to do the missing
man flight. So don't worry, they have had a little to much practis at
this over the last few years........

QB? Who dat?

--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
The thing I've noticed, particularly about Usenet, that while as a
welcome break from work it is refreshing and interesting, when you've
got bugger all else to do it kinda loses its appeal. -- C Speed

Paul Tomblin wrote:
In a previous article, you k who said:

Paul, I beleave you will find that the QB are going to do the missing
man flight. So don't worry, they have had a little to much practis at
this over the last few years........

QB? Who dat?

Quiet Birdmen (another secret society, you have to be invited to become
a member)

john smith wrote:

Paul Tomblin wrote:

In a previous article, you k who said:

Paul, I beleave you will find that the QB are going to do the missing
man flight. So don't worry, they have had a little to much practis at
this over the last few years........


QB? Who dat?


Quiet Birdmen (another secret society, you have to be invited to become
a member)

I keep getting invited. One of the guys at the tower is one and 4 or 5
of the guys in the hangars near me are members. All they do is have a
party once a month and hire strippers to perform.