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Should a W&B list gross weight?



 
 
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  #11  
Old October 17th 05, 12:32 AM
Andrew Gideon
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Default Should a W&B list gross weight?

Newps wrote:

You're talking empty weight. Gross weight is the max the airplane can
weigh.


No, I'm not. That's part of the problem. It is completely reasonable to
expect, with work that involves neither airframe nor powerplant, that the
gross weight won't change (even though empty weight has). But is it
*legal* to operate under that assumption, or must a new W&B list the "new"
gross weight even if it is not changed?

It appears, from some of the other postings, that a new W&B need not
describe the gross weight if it's not altered. I (and some others) have
merely been "spoiled" by always seeing the gross weight on any W&B.

- Andrew

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  #12  
Old October 17th 05, 01:23 AM
Mike W.
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Default Should a W&B list gross weight?

I am not sure why you are so worried about the gross weight. You have
documentation for the new empty weight and CG, right? So whatever you decide
to put in the airplane, animal, vegetable or mineral, you can weigh and/or
calculate to do your W&B for a particular filght. As long as you are inside
the CG envelope and not over takeoff weight (and can show your work) you
should have no hassles. Right?

"Andrew Gideon" wrote in message
gonline.com...
Newps wrote:

You're talking empty weight. Gross weight is the max the airplane can
weigh.


No, I'm not. That's part of the problem. It is completely reasonable to
expect, with work that involves neither airframe nor powerplant, that the
gross weight won't change (even though empty weight has). But is it
*legal* to operate under that assumption, or must a new W&B list the "new"
gross weight even if it is not changed?

It appears, from some of the other postings, that a new W&B need not
describe the gross weight if it's not altered. I (and some others) have
merely been "spoiled" by always seeing the gross weight on any W&B.

- Andrew



  #13  
Old October 17th 05, 02:33 AM
Ron Rosenfeld
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Default Should a W&B list gross weight?

On Sat, 15 Oct 2005 19:51:19 -0400, Andrew Gideon
wrote:

Some work was done on an airplane. The new W&B is of the "removed/added"
sort and computes a new empty weight and moment arm. But the document
doesn't state the gross weight.

The changes were all avionics; no airframe or power plant work was done. So
I'd expect the gross weight to remain unchanged from the prior W&B.

But does the new W&B need to state the gross weight, even if it is
unchanged? If not, do we then need both documents to cover the legalities
of documentation in the airplane?

Or did the person that wrote the new W&B err?

- Andrew


The aircraft gross weight, also called maximum weight,is the maximum
authorized weight of the aircraft and all of its equipment as specified in
the Type Certificate Data Sheets (TCDS) for the aircraft.

It is usually listed on the loading graph or chart supplied by the
manufacturer, or perhaps elsewhere in the POH/AFM.

The FAA publishes a handbook (FAA-H-8083-1) on weight and balance. With
regard to GA aircraft, the following seems to pertain:

"Weight and Balance Revision Record

"Aircraft manufacturers use different formats for their weight and balance
data, but Figure 5-2 is typical of a weight and balance revision record.

"...

"The weight and balance revision sheet should clearly show the revised
empty weight, empty weight arm and/or moment index, and the new useful
load."

HOWEVER, figure 5-2 shows NO sign of an entry of useful load (or maximum
weight). It shows the old empty weight of the airplane; the various
adjustments for removal and addition of various avionics with regard to
weight, arm and moment; and the computed new empty weight, moment and CG of
the aircraft.

And you were looking for clarity?

Good luck. Bottom line -- it's probably not a requirement. And changes in
allowable maximum weight should be reflected in the STC data for the
modification that allowed that change; and documented according to the
requirements in that STC.

"We're from the FAA, and we're not happy until you're not happy!"



Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)
  #14  
Old October 17th 05, 02:56 AM
Andrew Gideon
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Default Should a W&B list gross weight?

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:

[...]

And you were looking for clarity?


Laugh Yes.

- Andrew

  #15  
Old October 18th 05, 12:07 AM
Mike W.
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Default Should a W&B list gross weight?

Let it go, Louie. Let it go.

"Andrew Gideon" wrote in message
online.com...
Ron Rosenfeld wrote:

[...]

And you were looking for clarity?


Laugh Yes.

- Andrew



  #16  
Old October 18th 05, 12:22 AM
Ron Natalie
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Default Should a W&B list gross weight?

Andrew Gideon wrote:


I have found 23.1583, which states that maximum weight and center of gravity
limits are part of the aircraft manual, and 23.1519 which states that
weight and CG limits are a part of operating limitations.


Part 23 has no meaning for my aircraft. As I said, the empty
weight/momemt is in an entirely different document than where the CG
envelope is defined in my plane and many others I have flown.


But what's the documentation requirement for equipment changes which alter
one or more of these factors? 23.21 discusses this for type certification,
but not for upgrades.


Well since the max weight or CG doesn't change (unless you're doing a
major modfication), just the empty weight, the equipment list with a ne
emtpy weight/moment would seem not to need to duplicate that information.
  #17  
Old October 18th 05, 08:54 PM
Andrew Gideon
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Default Should a W&B list gross weight?

Ron Natalie wrote:

Well since the max weight or CG doesn't change (unless you're doing a
major modfication), just the empty weight, the equipment list with a ne
emtpy weight/moment would seem not to need to duplicate that information.


That's the conclusion to which I've been coming. I'd be more comfortable,
though, if I found something (ie. in part 43) which discussed what to do
when the maximum gross weight is altered. Since two of our club aircraft
have had such upgrades, it would just be more clear to me if I could see
the distinction drawn between modifications that do and do not alter gross
weight.

I'd also have liked to see some mechanism whereby a line was drawn for those
modifications which might or might not impact gross weight. Yes, it should
be obvious. But that uses common sense, and I fear the outcome should I
make the mistake of applying common sense to legal (esp. FAA {8^) matters.

- Andrew

  #18  
Old October 18th 05, 11:22 PM
Mike W.
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Default Should a W&B list gross weight?

A new weight and balance.

"Andrew Gideon" wrote in message
online.com...
But what documentation is required for aircraft changes which alter the
empty weight and CG? If that documentation doesn't list the gross weight,
is it safe (ie. safe in a ramp check {8^) to assume that it's unchanged?

- Andrew



  #19  
Old October 19th 05, 01:49 AM
Ron Rosenfeld
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Default Should a W&B list gross weight?

On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 15:54:02 -0400, Andrew Gideon
wrote:

Ron Natalie wrote:

Well since the max weight or CG doesn't change (unless you're doing a
major modfication), just the empty weight, the equipment list with a ne
emtpy weight/moment would seem not to need to duplicate that information.


That's the conclusion to which I've been coming. I'd be more comfortable,
though, if I found something (ie. in part 43) which discussed what to do
when the maximum gross weight is altered. Since two of our club aircraft
have had such upgrades, it would just be more clear to me if I could see
the distinction drawn between modifications that do and do not alter gross
weight.


What does the STC say? (I think they are available on line if you could
post the info regarding the STC).




I'd also have liked to see some mechanism whereby a line was drawn for those
modifications which might or might not impact gross weight. Yes, it should
be obvious. But that uses common sense, and I fear the outcome should I
make the mistake of applying common sense to legal (esp. FAA {8^) matters.

- Andrew


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)
  #20  
Old October 19th 05, 08:19 PM
Andrew Gideon
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Posts: n/a
Default Should a W&B list gross weight?

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:

What does the STC say?¬*¬*(I¬*think¬*they¬*are¬*available¬*on¬*line¬ *if¬*you¬*could
post the info regarding the STC).


I thought of that, and I tried to locate it. I could not. It is: sa703gl.

I did locate plenty of planes that had this done, though, which was fun. I
found a couple of NTSB reports regarding aircraft that had had this done,
which was less fun.

- Andrew

 




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