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Starter question



 
 
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  #21  
Old January 31st 07, 03:02 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 111
Default UPDATE Starter question

On Jan 30, 3:42 pm, A Lieberma wrote:
A Lieberma wrote 8.18:

Update to the below posting.

My A&P pulled my plane in. Bear with me on this, but the bendex or
selenoids????? needed a good WD40ing and that fixed the starter problem.
MY GUESS is the cold weather gummed up the works? Dunno.

The starter is still in good shape from what my A&P said. It's an
prestolite starter for those that asked what kind of starter I had in my
plane.

I described the problem in the third paragraph in my original post,
initially, when he called me, he said I had a bad turn coordinator
causing the noise that I best described to him as a gyro winding down
after the master switch was put on.

He called me back a second time and said, it wasn't the turn coordinator
that was broken. The turn coordinator wasn't getting enough volts to
keep it running, so it would start up, and then shut down as the battery
was only putting out 9 volts.

I had a new battery installed in 02/03, so I guess I was on the end life
of the battery.

This should fix all problems (I hope) and will fly it in the pattern
tomorrow to make sure all systems are go.

Now, all of this raises a couple of question. Exactly what is the
ammeter for if I wasn't showing any sign of discharge on a battery not
running full tilt?

When I put the master on, it was exactly where it is everytime I started
the plane, with no sign if discharge. I know the meter works, as when I
put my landing light on, it will swing to the left. When I fire the
engine, the needle swings slightly right and settles back in the middle.

When the battery does go belly up, does the starter click like a car when
a bad battery is the problem?

Thanks all for the input!

Allen



Went flying today. Go to crank the engine for start, nothing. Turn
the key, got like a jiggle of the prop. Turn all electrical things
off, figuring the battery drained, and then started just the alt and
bat, same thing, jiggle of the prop. Tried once more, and got the
prop to turn and fired right up.


Just had the durn starter replaced in July with a new one.


I don't think it was the battery, as nothing moved when I turned the
key, just a strange noise, no clicking like it would sound with a dead
battery. When I fired up the master and alternator, I heard a noise
sounding like something was draining the battery, yet the meter was
stable in the middle, not indicating any discharge.


Last week, when I cranked it, it struggled on the first turn of the
prop, but it started, so I had attributed it to maybe my battery being
low, it being very cold by MS standards, but after today, watching the
electrical amnmeter, the load was fine once the engine was running.


Am I having a bad run of starters, or should I be looking elsewhere
for a problem?


Grant you, I try to fly two times a week, but I would think I would
have gotten more starts out of this starter then 6 months worth.


Plane normally starts with one or two turns of the prop, so it's not
like the starter is running for any period of time or been abused.


Allen- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


According to the Battery Tender folks, the health of the battery can
be determined by measuring the voltage across the terminals after the
battery has been at rest for about 24 hrs. A full 100% charged battery
will show 12.9 volts, and a fully discharged one will show 11.4 volts.
If a battery shows 12.05 volts, halfway in between, it has 50%
capacity. Mine shows 12.6 volts, which is 80% of full charge. Here is
there website explaining it in more detail

http://batterytender.com/faqs.php/#1

Bud


  #22  
Old January 31st 07, 03:09 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning
A Lieberma
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 318
Default UPDATE Starter question

David Lesher wrote in news:epoqih$kks$1
@reader2.panix.com:

The "no crank" you experienced means insufficent voltage at the
starter innards. Its cause could be: discharged/bad battery [low
source voltage] or bad connections -- be they at the battery terminals,
the starter cables, the solonoid, or inside the starter.


One thing for sure David,

New battery, I am sure my A&P cleaned the battery connections and I am
pretty sure he would have inspected the connections so that will be ruling
out any further issues should I have any.

He has been extremely thorough in the five years I have been doing business
with him.

Allen
  #23  
Old January 31st 07, 03:14 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning
A Lieberma
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 318
Default UPDATE Starter question

Don Tuite wrote in
:

Are we talking about a Piper?

If so, the "ammeter" is a "load" meter that reads current. It shows
how much current stuff in the airplane is sucking. If you have the
pitot and landing lights on, it should show a pretty heavy load. Most
of the time, it doesn't indicate much, because radios and stuff don't
present a very big load.


Don,

We are talking about a Sundowner, and it does exactly what you describe
when I put on the landing light and pitot heat.

Though landing light seems to pull a heck of a load for a simple light, but
been told that's normal.

Pitot heat doesn't pull as much load.

Thanks all for explaining the ammeter!

Allen
  #24  
Old January 31st 07, 05:16 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning
john smith
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,446
Default UPDATE Starter question

In article ,
Don Tuite wrote:

It shows how much current stuff in the airplane is sucking.


I only read this newsgroup for the technical discussions.

:-)
  #25  
Old January 31st 07, 06:21 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning
John_F
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12
Default UPDATE Starter question

Do NOT use WD40!! WD40 turns into a stickey mess in a short period of
time. After using WD40 in a few months or less the bendix will stick
and will not extend to engage even though the starter spins. Use 50%
motor oil and 50% STP or straight 50w motor oil NOT WD40.

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 23:42:17 GMT, A Lieberma
wrote:

A Lieberma wrote in
.18:

Update to the below posting.

My A&P pulled my plane in. Bear with me on this, but the bendex or
selenoids????? needed a good WD40ing and that fixed the starter problem.
MY GUESS is the cold weather gummed up the works? Dunno.

The starter is still in good shape from what my A&P said. It's an
prestolite starter for those that asked what kind of starter I had in my
plane.

I described the problem in the third paragraph in my original post,
initially, when he called me, he said I had a bad turn coordinator
causing the noise that I best described to him as a gyro winding down
after the master switch was put on.

He called me back a second time and said, it wasn't the turn coordinator
that was broken. The turn coordinator wasn't getting enough volts to
keep it running, so it would start up, and then shut down as the battery
was only putting out 9 volts.

I had a new battery installed in 02/03, so I guess I was on the end life
of the battery.

This should fix all problems (I hope) and will fly it in the pattern
tomorrow to make sure all systems are go.

Now, all of this raises a couple of question. Exactly what is the
ammeter for if I wasn't showing any sign of discharge on a battery not
running full tilt?

When I put the master on, it was exactly where it is everytime I started
the plane, with no sign if discharge. I know the meter works, as when I
put my landing light on, it will swing to the left. When I fire the
engine, the needle swings slightly right and settles back in the middle.

When the battery does go belly up, does the starter click like a car when
a bad battery is the problem?

Thanks all for the input!

Allen

Went flying today. Go to crank the engine for start, nothing. Turn
the key, got like a jiggle of the prop. Turn all electrical things
off, figuring the battery drained, and then started just the alt and
bat, same thing, jiggle of the prop. Tried once more, and got the
prop to turn and fired right up.

Just had the durn starter replaced in July with a new one.

I don't think it was the battery, as nothing moved when I turned the
key, just a strange noise, no clicking like it would sound with a dead
battery. When I fired up the master and alternator, I heard a noise
sounding like something was draining the battery, yet the meter was
stable in the middle, not indicating any discharge.

Last week, when I cranked it, it struggled on the first turn of the
prop, but it started, so I had attributed it to maybe my battery being
low, it being very cold by MS standards, but after today, watching the
electrical amnmeter, the load was fine once the engine was running.

Am I having a bad run of starters, or should I be looking elsewhere
for a problem?

Grant you, I try to fly two times a week, but I would think I would
have gotten more starts out of this starter then 6 months worth.

Plane normally starts with one or two turns of the prop, so it's not
like the starter is running for any period of time or been abused.

Allen


  #26  
Old January 31st 07, 08:21 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 111
Default UPDATE Starter question

On Jan 30, 9:21 pm, (John_F) wrote:
Do NOT use WD40!! WD40 turns into a stickey mess in a short period of
time. After using WD40 in a few months or less the bendix will stick
and will not extend to engage even though the starter spins. Use 50%
motor oil and 50% STP or straight 50w motor oil NOT WD40.

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 23:42:17 GMT, A Lieberma
wrote:



A Lieberma wrote in
.18:


Update to the below posting.


My A&P pulled my plane in. Bear with me on this, but the bendex or
selenoids????? needed a good WD40ing and that fixed the starter problem.
MY GUESS is the cold weather gummed up the works? Dunno.


The starter is still in good shape from what my A&P said. It's an
prestolite starter for those that asked what kind of starter I had in my
plane.


I described the problem in the third paragraph in my original post,
initially, when he called me, he said I had a bad turn coordinator
causing the noise that I best described to him as a gyro winding down
after the master switch was put on.


He called me back a second time and said, it wasn't the turn coordinator
that was broken. The turn coordinator wasn't getting enough volts to
keep it running, so it would start up, and then shut down as the battery
was only putting out 9 volts.


I had a new battery installed in 02/03, so I guess I was on the end life
of the battery.


This should fix all problems (I hope) and will fly it in the pattern
tomorrow to make sure all systems are go.


Now, all of this raises a couple of question. Exactly what is the
ammeter for if I wasn't showing any sign of discharge on a battery not
running full tilt?


When I put the master on, it was exactly where it is everytime I started
the plane, with no sign if discharge. I know the meter works, as when I
put my landing light on, it will swing to the left. When I fire the
engine, the needle swings slightly right and settles back in the middle.


When the battery does go belly up, does the starter click like a car when
a bad battery is the problem?


Thanks all for the input!


Allen


Went flying today. Go to crank the engine for start, nothing. Turn
the key, got like a jiggle of the prop. Turn all electrical things
off, figuring the battery drained, and then started just the alt and
bat, same thing, jiggle of the prop. Tried once more, and got the
prop to turn and fired right up.


Just had the durn starter replaced in July with a new one.


I don't think it was the battery, as nothing moved when I turned the
key, just a strange noise, no clicking like it would sound with a dead
battery. When I fired up the master and alternator, I heard a noise
sounding like something was draining the battery, yet the meter was
stable in the middle, not indicating any discharge.


Last week, when I cranked it, it struggled on the first turn of the
prop, but it started, so I had attributed it to maybe my battery being
low, it being very cold by MS standards, but after today, watching the
electrical amnmeter, the load was fine once the engine was running.


Am I having a bad run of starters, or should I be looking elsewhere
for a problem?


Grant you, I try to fly two times a week, but I would think I would
have gotten more starts out of this starter then 6 months worth.


Plane normally starts with one or two turns of the prop, so it's not
like the starter is running for any period of time or been abused.


Allen- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


I thought STP turned pretty sticky after a while. It is Silicone spray
that you are supposed to use on starter bendixes I thought. The STP
and motor oil mixture is an old formula used to make a good engine
assembly lube, since it does not run off the internal metal parts
during long term storage.

Bud

  #27  
Old January 31st 07, 08:43 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 195
Default UPDATE Starter question

wrote:
According to the Battery Tender folks, the health of the battery can
be determined by measuring the voltage across the terminals after the
battery has been at rest for about 24 hrs. A full 100% charged battery
will show 12.9 volts, and a fully discharged one will show 11.4 volts.


IMHO, the 12.9 V figure is a little high. I usually expect and see about
12.60 - 12.65 V for a fully charged flooded lead-acid starting battery.
For whatever it might be worth,
http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/carfaq.htm has about the same
numbers.

I've used the Battery Tender chargers and they work well, but I am also
not surprised that a manufacturer of battery chargers gives a figure for
"fully charged" that probably makes many batteries tend to look
discharged. Never ask a barber if you need a haircut.

Disclaimer: This is based on experience with flooded and VRLA/AGM
batteries for starting and traction on ground vehicles. I don't have
an A&P; I don't even have a TG&Y. I don't get money or other
consideration from any of the companies mentioned.

Matt Roberds

  #28  
Old January 31st 07, 11:36 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 111
Default UPDATE Starter question

On Jan 30, 11:43 pm, wrote:
wrote:
According to the Battery Tender folks, the health of the battery can
be determined by measuring the voltage across the terminals after the
battery has been at rest for about 24 hrs. A full 100% charged battery
will show 12.9 volts, and a fully discharged one will show 11.4 volts.


IMHO, the 12.9 V figure is a little high. I usually expect and see about
12.60 - 12.65 V for a fully charged flooded lead-acid starting battery.
For whatever it might be worth,http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/carfaq.htmhas about the same
numbers.

I've used the Battery Tender chargers and they work well, but I am also
not surprised that a manufacturer of battery chargers gives a figure for
"fully charged" that probably makes many batteries tend to look
discharged. Never ask a barber if you need a haircut.

Disclaimer: This is based on experience with flooded and VRLA/AGM
batteries for starting and traction on ground vehicles. I don't have
an A&P; I don't even have a TG&Y. I don't get money or other
consideration from any of the companies mentioned.

Matt Roberds


Thanks for the resource, it has a lot of detailed information. They
state the following:

"Depending on the plate chemistry, the Open Circuit Voltage can
range from 12.6 to 13.1 for fully charged wet "Maintenance Free" (Ca/
Ca) batteries and tend to be higher in deep cycle than in car (or
starting) batteries. "

This goes with what little I had heard about aircarft vs car
batteries, which is that aircraft batteries have a slightly higher
voltage than car batteries. Seems that it depends on the type of
battery one has, so the 12.9 is maybe an absolute maximum. I don't
know for sure. I'll just keep reading.

Regards,
Bud

  #29  
Old January 31st 07, 05:20 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,130
Default UPDATE Starter question

On Jan 30, 10:21 pm, (John_F) wrote:
Do NOT use WD40!! WD40 turns into a stickey mess in a short period of
time. After using WD40 in a few months or less the bendix will stick
and will not extend to engage even though the starter spins. Use 50%
motor oil and 50% STP or straight 50w motor oil NOT WD40.


Lycoming says to use only silicone spray lube on the starter
drive. It will not attract dust as all other lubes will, and dust plus
oil equals sticky sludge. You might need to remove the starter, take
the drive out and clean it thoroughly.
Many starting problems involve old contactors, both the master
contactor and starter contactor, and both are usually found on the
firewall or battery box. These things aren't airtight, and oxygen gets
into them and causes oxidation of the copper contact disc and teminal
heads. That oxide is not a good conductor and will result in some
resistance, which causes more heat, which accelerates the oxidation.
We have to regularly replace contactors on our six flight school
airplanes, and when we buy another (used) airplane we usually replace
both of them right off simply because of their age. A low-time
contactor will still be oxidized because of the years since
manufacture. A bad contactor can ground an airplane far from home and
cause us expensive repairs. A new battery is just a waste of money,
trying to fix the wrong problem.
Another problem: old ignition switches. The contacts in these are
lubricated with a grease that hardens with time and lifts the contacts
apart. Arcing occurs and the switch soon burns out. There are ADs
against some of these switches.
There is no contactor inside the Prestolite starter on a Lyc.
There IS a 200-hour brush inspection requirement, because worn brushes
or commutator will cause starting problems. And a lousy contactor or
tired battery will result in much longer crank cycles, which heats the
starter and melts the solder joining the armature wires to the
commutator segments, or will melt the segment bonds and they'll be
thrown out. End of $450 starter. See how an old $25 contactor can
cause many more problems?

The OP mentioned turning off the radios and other stuff to try
to start. Radios should be turned off before turing off the master at
the end of a flight and left off until the engine has been started
again. Some radios have no voltage spike protection. Some aircraft
have a diode across the master contactor coil to shunt the spike, some
don't, and some of those diodes are busted. Some starter contactors
have diodes, many don't. The starter has no diode. Some aircraft have
a relay that opens the supply to the avionics during the start, many
don't.
Any contactor has a coil, the starter has several coils, and
the alternator has a field coil. All coils create a sharp voltage
spike when the current is cut off. Switching the master off, the
alternator off, or releasing the start switch all create that spike
(I've measured the master contactor's spike at 600 volts) and those
expensive radios aren't all built to put up with it, especially
considering that the spike creates an electron flow in the wrong
direction through the bus. That's why many aircraft have an avionics
master switch (that has no coil involved). The rest should have the
radios shut off before shutdown.

Dan

 




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