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Attitudes & Reality



 
 
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  #51  
Old May 7th 18, 08:52 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
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Posts: 1,383
Default Attitudes & Reality

Ya know, sometimes I agree with you, sometimes I really don't.

In this case seems like an OK to throw some thoughts out there, not really agreeing/disagreeing with you.

I have a few decades in facilities/plant maintenance.
This includes building system management as well as alarms (HVAC, water pressure, compressed air, etc.).
It also includes 15+ years with UPS battery management systems and alarms.

While an engineer may want tight limits, too tight may trigger many alarms. This gets the users into, "it's a stupid alarm, ignore it". Worse if they either don't understand the data or the negative impact of the data.

More than once with UPS batteries, I and a sales guy would be called into a site. The question was, "we spent all this money on battery monitoring, why did we drop the data floor?!?!".

I could look at data and say, "well, for 6 months our system was saying you had issues. They were ignored, then you had a major power event and the system and redundant systems fell....".

OK, take this post out of a niche discussion, make it more "normal".

You buy some cars, they have some warning lights. You likely have a battery light, a brake light (could be low fluid, could be the E-brake is on), an oil light and a temp light.
For those of us that may money working on cars, these are called idiot lights. By the time the light comes on, something bad has already happened. No real forewarning.
Why? They only tell the mechanic what system failed and stopped the car.
On the other hand, maybe your model had gauges or you added your own.
Now you can see a trend to a bad outcome.
Now, you can still choose to ignore the impending bad outcome, but it is a choice.

How does this relate to the discussion?
Well, with proper training and use, eyeballs do a fair job, but not perfect. Likely a bit better than "idiot lights", but not perfect.
Flarm, transponder, whatever.....is more like gauges, still not perfect, but better than eyeballs alone. If you choose to ignore the info, it may still be a bad outcome.

Kirk seemed to think I was against any type of collision avoidance (in another thread), I am not.
Your location can raise or lower the need, but it is better to have if possible.
As I stated in the other thread, most private gliders I fly have some system. I like having more info. Flarm is good as it is more specific to close quarters flying like a thermal.
Asking our club to equip all club aircraft is another matter. If I could afford to just buy it for each club ship, but I can't afford that.
What we have done is try to impart on pilots the potential dangers and push for looking as well as maintaining FAA cloud clearances. This is about on par with idiot lights.
  #52  
Old May 7th 18, 09:47 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Scott Williams
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Posts: 198
Default Attitudes & Reality

Lots of passion on this topic, Lot's more knowledge out there than I have.
Does anyone have a reasonable guess as to the percentage of U.S. gliders that have flarm? transponders? or both? For that matter, Radio's, oxygen, etc?

Is there anyone willing to admit the adoption of flarm in the U.S. 'could' be considered a failure, (at least compared to Europe), and in the future represent a waste of money by the pilots that bought in? and, maybe some negative emotion towards those who didn't?

Will the 2020 change in
the transponder/ADSB situation prove to be the system to install?

On a lighter note this reminds me a lot of some discussions I remember about VHS vs BETA tape formats. I'll remind everyone that the technically superior format lost out to the cheaper and inferior technology.

Not meaning to step on toes, Just wondering?

Scott W.
  #53  
Old May 7th 18, 11:18 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
kirk.stant
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Posts: 1,260
Default Attitudes & Reality

On Monday, May 7, 2018 at 3:47:44 PM UTC-5, Scott Williams wrote:
Lots of passion on this topic, Lot's more knowledge out there than I have..
Does anyone have a reasonable guess as to the percentage of U.S. gliders that have flarm? transponders? or both? For that matter, Radio's, oxygen, etc?

Is there anyone willing to admit the adoption of flarm in the U.S. 'could' be considered a failure, (at least compared to Europe), and in the future represent a waste of money by the pilots that bought in? and, maybe some negative emotion towards those who didn't?

Will the 2020 change in
the transponder/ADSB situation prove to be the system to install?

On a lighter note this reminds me a lot of some discussions I remember about VHS vs BETA tape formats. I'll remind everyone that the technically superior format lost out to the cheaper and inferior technology.

Not meaning to step on toes, Just wondering?

Scott W.


Passion? Yeah, kinda!

IMO, Flarm and ADS-B are not really competitors, they broadly complement each other, with a lot of overlap, and a lot of unique features. Best solution (cost no object) is ADS-B OUT (using Mode S to get up high out West) and dual mode IN (to get the freebies: WX, etc) plus PowerFLARM for racing and serious XC with your buddies. PF freebies are an IGC logger and GPS for your gliding nav stuff.

But all that ain't cheap! And right now, the problem is that it's hard to integrate the two systems, so you end up with multiple displays and little data correlation/fusion. That should be changing with ADS-B (mode S) being mandatory in Europe.

As far as 2020: If you don't have a transponder now and don't plan to get one, the ADS-B mandate doesn't really affect you - you don't HAVE to get it. But in many places it sure is smart to have a transponder; so those gliders will probably upgrade to ADS-B out (pretty cheap for Experimental).

Then there is always the problem of where to put the darn Bluray player in the cockpit...

Kirk
66
  #54  
Old May 8th 18, 01:22 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
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Posts: 1,439
Default Attitudes & Reality

On Monday, May 7, 2018 at 8:15:53 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
On Monday, May 7, 2018 at 12:36:16 AM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, May 6, 2018 at 7:38:18 PM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:

Hmmm, are you from the FAA? So, it is YOUR sky, is it? You should take a Dale Carnegie course, "How to Win Friends and Influence People." You can get it for free:
http://images.kw.com/docs/2/1/2/2123...58_htwfaip.pdf


Yes, it IS my sky - and yours too. Unfortunately, it's also "Gregg.."'s sky.

And I don't need to win friends, I've got plenty of them - intelligent, open minded people - unlike trolls like Gregg..

If it sounds like I have no patience for fools and idiots - then I'm getting my point across absolutely dead on.

Cheers,

Kirk
66


Some day you may be mature enough to recognize the error of your ways, but not today.

Tom
  #55  
Old May 8th 18, 02:02 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
kirk.stant
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Posts: 1,260
Default Attitudes & Reality

On Monday, May 7, 2018 at 7:22:55 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
On Monday, May 7, 2018 at 8:15:53 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
On Monday, May 7, 2018 at 12:36:16 AM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, May 6, 2018 at 7:38:18 PM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:

Hmmm, are you from the FAA? So, it is YOUR sky, is it? You should take a Dale Carnegie course, "How to Win Friends and Influence People." You can get it for free:
http://images.kw.com/docs/2/1/2/2123...58_htwfaip.pdf


Yes, it IS my sky - and yours too. Unfortunately, it's also "Gregg.."'s sky.

And I don't need to win friends, I've got plenty of them - intelligent, open minded people - unlike trolls like Gregg..

If it sounds like I have no patience for fools and idiots - then I'm getting my point across absolutely dead on.

Cheers,

Kirk
66


Some day you may be mature enough to recognize the error of your ways, but not today.

Tom


God I hope not!!!

Look up "Pompous Ass" - we probably both fit the description ;^)

Kirk
66
  #56  
Old May 9th 18, 06:29 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
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Posts: 1,439
Default Attitudes & Reality

On Tuesday, May 8, 2018 at 6:02:12 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
On Monday, May 7, 2018 at 7:22:55 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
On Monday, May 7, 2018 at 8:15:53 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
On Monday, May 7, 2018 at 12:36:16 AM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, May 6, 2018 at 7:38:18 PM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:

Hmmm, are you from the FAA? So, it is YOUR sky, is it? You should take a Dale Carnegie course, "How to Win Friends and Influence People." You can get it for free:
http://images.kw.com/docs/2/1/2/2123...58_htwfaip.pdf

Yes, it IS my sky - and yours too. Unfortunately, it's also "Gregg.."'s sky.

And I don't need to win friends, I've got plenty of them - intelligent, open minded people - unlike trolls like Gregg..

If it sounds like I have no patience for fools and idiots - then I'm getting my point across absolutely dead on.

Cheers,

Kirk
66


Some day you may be mature enough to recognize the error of your ways, but not today.

Tom


God I hope not!!!

Look up "Pompous Ass" - we probably both fit the description ;^)

Kirk
66


Perhaps, but the subject was how to influence people. Calling them fools, idiots or full of **** is not likely to win any converts.

Tom
  #57  
Old May 9th 18, 01:57 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
kirk.stant
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Posts: 1,260
Default Attitudes & Reality

On Wednesday, May 9, 2018 at 12:29:07 AM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, May 8, 2018 at 6:02:12 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
On Monday, May 7, 2018 at 7:22:55 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
On Monday, May 7, 2018 at 8:15:53 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
On Monday, May 7, 2018 at 12:36:16 AM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, May 6, 2018 at 7:38:18 PM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:

Hmmm, are you from the FAA? So, it is YOUR sky, is it? You should take a Dale Carnegie course, "How to Win Friends and Influence People." You can get it for free:
http://images.kw.com/docs/2/1/2/2123...58_htwfaip.pdf

Yes, it IS my sky - and yours too. Unfortunately, it's also "Gregg.."'s sky.

And I don't need to win friends, I've got plenty of them - intelligent, open minded people - unlike trolls like Gregg..

If it sounds like I have no patience for fools and idiots - then I'm getting my point across absolutely dead on.

Cheers,

Kirk
66

Some day you may be mature enough to recognize the error of your ways, but not today.

Tom


God I hope not!!!

Look up "Pompous Ass" - we probably both fit the description ;^)

Kirk
66


Perhaps, but the subject was how to influence people. Calling them fools, idiots or full of **** is not likely to win any converts.

Tom


True, but you assume that I'm trying to win converts. False assumption in this case, as it would be a waste of time!

Kirk
  #58  
Old May 9th 18, 02:38 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 774
Default Attitudes & Reality

Someone once told me that I could catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

But why waste honey on flies?
  #59  
Old May 9th 18, 03:58 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 145
Default Attitudes & Reality

On Wednesday, May 9, 2018 at 8:57:31 AM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:
On Wednesday, May 9, 2018 at 12:29:07 AM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, May 8, 2018 at 6:02:12 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
On Monday, May 7, 2018 at 7:22:55 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
On Monday, May 7, 2018 at 8:15:53 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
On Monday, May 7, 2018 at 12:36:16 AM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, May 6, 2018 at 7:38:18 PM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:

Hmmm, are you from the FAA? So, it is YOUR sky, is it? You should take a Dale Carnegie course, "How to Win Friends and Influence People." You can get it for free:
http://images.kw.com/docs/2/1/2/2123...58_htwfaip.pdf

Yes, it IS my sky - and yours too. Unfortunately, it's also "Gregg.."'s sky.

And I don't need to win friends, I've got plenty of them - intelligent, open minded people - unlike trolls like Gregg..

If it sounds like I have no patience for fools and idiots - then I'm getting my point across absolutely dead on.

Cheers,

Kirk
66

Some day you may be mature enough to recognize the error of your ways, but not today.

Tom

God I hope not!!!

Look up "Pompous Ass" - we probably both fit the description ;^)

Kirk
66


Perhaps, but the subject was how to influence people. Calling them fools, idiots or full of **** is not likely to win any converts.

Tom


True, but you assume that I'm trying to win converts. False assumption in this case, as it would be a waste of time!

Kirk


"Sometimes you just gotta call bullsh@*#". The main theme of Ken Kesey's speech to introduce Jerry Brown during Brown's run for President in the early 90's. Ken did so with a bottle of Vodka in hand, seemed to punctuate his message, but that might just be me. Sometimes it needs to happen, depending on your perspective. Seems at least fair when someone claims Flarm is more harmful than helpful. I don't know how your could ever state that with such confidence.
  #60  
Old May 10th 18, 02:14 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
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Posts: 1,439
Default Attitudes & Reality

On Wednesday, May 9, 2018 at 5:57:31 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
On Wednesday, May 9, 2018 at 12:29:07 AM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, May 8, 2018 at 6:02:12 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
On Monday, May 7, 2018 at 7:22:55 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
On Monday, May 7, 2018 at 8:15:53 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
On Monday, May 7, 2018 at 12:36:16 AM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, May 6, 2018 at 7:38:18 PM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:

Hmmm, are you from the FAA? So, it is YOUR sky, is it? You should take a Dale Carnegie course, "How to Win Friends and Influence People." You can get it for free:
http://images.kw.com/docs/2/1/2/2123...58_htwfaip.pdf

Yes, it IS my sky - and yours too. Unfortunately, it's also "Gregg.."'s sky.

And I don't need to win friends, I've got plenty of them - intelligent, open minded people - unlike trolls like Gregg..

If it sounds like I have no patience for fools and idiots - then I'm getting my point across absolutely dead on.

Cheers,

Kirk
66

Some day you may be mature enough to recognize the error of your ways, but not today.

Tom

God I hope not!!!

Look up "Pompous Ass" - we probably both fit the description ;^)

Kirk
66


Perhaps, but the subject was how to influence people. Calling them fools, idiots or full of **** is not likely to win any converts.

Tom


True, but you assume that I'm trying to win converts. False assumption in this case, as it would be a waste of time!

Kirk


That's the maturity part: driving fellow pilots away just makes the situation worse. And I happen to agree with you - I just spent a fair amount of change on an ATD-57.

Tom
 




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