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Notable Power Flarm saves - Is it 'worth it'?



 
 
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  #21  
Old May 1st 18, 03:57 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tom BravoMike
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Default Notable Power Flarm saves - Is it 'worth it'?

On Tuesday, May 1, 2018 at 8:01:47 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 7:59:26 AM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
When I installed Power Flarm (PF) in 2013, I had no idea whether it would ever 'save my butt'. Not many people have it in my area.......


Regarding Flarms and Transponders, I find it odd that my glider insurance isn't reduced when one of these is installed. I assume the insurance companies believe neither produces a significant reduction in accidents. However the worry of collisions, however remote, induced me to install something.

The hassle/cost/space/power/antenna considerations of fitting either system caused me to consider which (Transponder or Flarm) would be the best choice. My decision was to get a Trig 22 and not a Flarm. I also easily generated SIL=0 ADSB-out using one of my two existing onboard (uncertified) GPSs (I am experimental). I could move to SIL=3, but right now see not much added protection, and feel the price of a certified gps is a gouge.

My reasoning was that a transponder gave me better protection than Flarm from commercial power traffic, which seems the most catastrophic risk. I will be visible 'for free' to gliders with Flarm, which will see my transponder, and maybe my SIL=0 ADSB-out too.

I'm now looking for a low-cost ADSB receiver and traffic display, to be able to see all transponder traffic myself. Regrettably, I don't believe that will enable me to see Flarm-only traffic, but they will continue to be able to see my transponder.

Would anyone disagree that a Transponder is now a better choice than Flarm in the USA?


I second your opinion. With all its obvious merits, FLARM is glider-specific. It's not seen by the GA participants.

And BTW, if everybody is so concerned with the safety (including the FLARM people), how come we don't have inexpensive FLARM receivers on the market? Why can I get a cheap, under $100, ADS-B-in devices and follow the traffic through all kinds of apps, without having myself (yet) an ADS-B-out? Why can I get a TCAS or PCAS which informs me about transponder equipped planes around me - but no FLARM signal receivers which could show the targets on XCSoar even without the PowerFlarm in my ship?

Or maybe I'm wrong? Please correct me, let me know what cheap FLARM receivers are out there, and I will be happy to start my experience with the FLARM signals and increase safety, say by 20-50% ...
  #22  
Old May 1st 18, 09:11 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default Notable Power Flarm saves - Is it 'worth it'?

Dan, what would be a panel-mounted sunlight-visible display (plug and play compatible, I'm not a computer expert) for something like the Stratux? I don't want an iphone screen on my knee. The panel displays sold for Flarm are cheap and look good, but I can't find out if they work with adsb-receivers like Stratux.





For a cheap ADS-B In solution in an experimental ship, look at
Stratux.Â* You can pick up a ready
to install system for around $250 or build it yourself with
parts from Amazon for under $100.Â* It's all open source software and
there's a parts list on stratux.me.



  #23  
Old May 2nd 18, 01:59 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Default Notable Power Flarm saves - Is it 'worth it'?

That's a good question.

When I was playing with Stratux, I used a Nexus 7, but it wasn't very
good in daylight.Â* I understand the new Samsung Galaxy tablets are quite
good, however.Â* The Dell Streak 5 would be great, but its Android
operating system is too old to run one of the Avare programs.Â* There may
be other Androids with daylight readable screens but I haven't kept up
to date on them.Â* Maybe someone else could make a recommendation.

Oh, and you can use a RAM mount to hold an Android, like a Samsung
Galaxy 8.Â* It will run both Avare (the application which displays ADS-B
targets from Stratux) AND XCSoar, an open source (read FREE) tactical
glider computer/moving map.Â* You could flip between applications or, if
available on the tablet, run both on split screen.

On 5/1/2018 2:11 PM, wrote:
Dan, what would be a panel-mounted sunlight-visible display (plug and play compatible, I'm not a computer expert) for something like the Stratux? I don't want an iphone screen on my knee. The panel displays sold for Flarm are cheap and look good, but I can't find out if they work with adsb-receivers like Stratux.



For a cheap ADS-B In solution in an experimental ship, look at
Stratux.Â* You can pick up a ready
to install system for around $250 or build it yourself with
parts from Amazon for under $100.Â* It's all open source software and
there's a parts list on stratux.me.




--
Dan, 5J
  #24  
Old May 2nd 18, 02:38 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Matt Herron Jr.
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Posts: 548
Default Notable Power Flarm saves - Is it 'worth it'?

On Tuesday, May 1, 2018 at 7:57:46 AM UTC-7, Tom BravoMike wrote:
On Tuesday, May 1, 2018 at 8:01:47 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 7:59:26 AM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
When I installed Power Flarm (PF) in 2013, I had no idea whether it would ever 'save my butt'. Not many people have it in my area.......


Regarding Flarms and Transponders, I find it odd that my glider insurance isn't reduced when one of these is installed. I assume the insurance companies believe neither produces a significant reduction in accidents. However the worry of collisions, however remote, induced me to install something..

The hassle/cost/space/power/antenna considerations of fitting either system caused me to consider which (Transponder or Flarm) would be the best choice. My decision was to get a Trig 22 and not a Flarm. I also easily generated SIL=0 ADSB-out using one of my two existing onboard (uncertified) GPSs (I am experimental). I could move to SIL=3, but right now see not much added protection, and feel the price of a certified gps is a gouge.

My reasoning was that a transponder gave me better protection than Flarm from commercial power traffic, which seems the most catastrophic risk. I will be visible 'for free' to gliders with Flarm, which will see my transponder, and maybe my SIL=0 ADSB-out too.

I'm now looking for a low-cost ADSB receiver and traffic display, to be able to see all transponder traffic myself. Regrettably, I don't believe that will enable me to see Flarm-only traffic, but they will continue to be able to see my transponder.

Would anyone disagree that a Transponder is now a better choice than Flarm in the USA?


I second your opinion. With all its obvious merits, FLARM is glider-specific. It's not seen by the GA participants.

And BTW, if everybody is so concerned with the safety (including the FLARM people), how come we don't have inexpensive FLARM receivers on the market? Why can I get a cheap, under $100, ADS-B-in devices and follow the traffic through all kinds of apps, without having myself (yet) an ADS-B-out? Why can I get a TCAS or PCAS which informs me about transponder equipped planes around me - but no FLARM signal receivers which could show the targets on XCSoar even without the PowerFlarm in my ship?

Or maybe I'm wrong? Please correct me, let me know what cheap FLARM receivers are out there, and I will be happy to start my experience with the FLARM signals and increase safety, say by 20-50% ...


in order for flarm to predict a potential collision, it needs BOTH aircraft to be transmitting information. a receive only flarm would give situational awareness, but NO collision avoidance.
  #25  
Old May 2nd 18, 03:40 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
AS
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Default Notable Power Flarm saves - Is it 'worth it'?

Would anyone disagree that a Transponder is now a better choice than Flarm in the USA?

I had been flying with a FLARM core for a couple of years now and installed a transponder last winter. Got it certified, too. It is 'only' a used Mode C but the combination adds to the safety. I was flying in NM last year with the FLARM screen set to 6 miles, when a transponder target moved across the screen in a very short time. It may have been a jet going into Albuquerque and I am sure, he didn't see me at all since he had no way of knowing I was there.
If you have the space on your panel and can afford it, get both.

Uli
'AS'
  #26  
Old May 2nd 18, 01:58 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
son_of_flubber
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Posts: 1,550
Default Notable Power Flarm saves - Is it 'worth it'?

On Tuesday, May 1, 2018 at 4:11:24 PM UTC-4, wrote:
... what would be a panel-mounted sunlight-visible display ... for something like the Stratux?


http://www.craggyaero.com/air_traffic_display.htm is very highly regarded. It's not cheap.

Is there a way to interface a dual band ADS-B-in to an Oudie?
  #27  
Old May 2nd 18, 02:57 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tom BravoMike
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Posts: 266
Default Notable Power Flarm saves - Is it 'worth it'?


I second your opinion. With all its obvious merits, FLARM is glider-specific. It's not seen by the GA participants.

And BTW, if everybody is so concerned with the safety (including the FLARM people), how come we don't have inexpensive FLARM receivers on the market? Why can I get a cheap, under $100, ADS-B-in devices and follow the traffic through all kinds of apps, without having myself (yet) an ADS-B-out? Why can I get a TCAS or PCAS which informs me about transponder equipped planes around me - but no FLARM signal receivers which could show the targets on XCSoar even without the PowerFlarm in my ship?

Or maybe I'm wrong? Please correct me, let me know what cheap FLARM receivers are out there, and I will be happy to start my experience with the FLARM signals and increase safety, say by 20-50% ...


in order for flarm to predict a potential collision, it needs BOTH aircraft to be transmitting information. a receive only flarm would give situational awareness, but NO collision avoidance.


Matt, could you please expand on it or direct me to a source so that I can understand better (and appreciate) how FLARM works? Is it about hardware (e..g. directional antennas) or software algorithm? My flight data is on board in my glider - right?, and from the 'receiver Flarm' I would get flight data transmitted from other gliders. What prohibits MY computer to do the needed calculations (course, speed, altitude) with regards to a potential collision? Isn't that what the existing apps for the cheap ADS-B-In are doing? I can see other aircrafts with their speed and direction, and as they get closer they change the color from blue to yellow to red and at one point alarm goes off. Why do you 'have to transmit' to receive this kind of a warning?
  #28  
Old May 3rd 18, 12:39 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
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Posts: 2,403
Default Notable Power Flarm saves - Is it 'worth it'?

On Wednesday, May 2, 2018 at 6:57:19 AM UTC-7, Tom BravoMike wrote:

I second your opinion. With all its obvious merits, FLARM is glider-specific. It's not seen by the GA participants.

And BTW, if everybody is so concerned with the safety (including the FLARM people), how come we don't have inexpensive FLARM receivers on the market? Why can I get a cheap, under $100, ADS-B-in devices and follow the traffic through all kinds of apps, without having myself (yet) an ADS-B-out? Why can I get a TCAS or PCAS which informs me about transponder equipped planes around me - but no FLARM signal receivers which could show the targets on XCSoar even without the PowerFlarm in my ship?

Or maybe I'm wrong? Please correct me, let me know what cheap FLARM receivers are out there, and I will be happy to start my experience with the FLARM signals and increase safety, say by 20-50% ...


in order for flarm to predict a potential collision, it needs BOTH aircraft to be transmitting information. a receive only flarm would give situational awareness, but NO collision avoidance.


Matt, could you please expand on it or direct me to a source so that I can understand better (and appreciate) how FLARM works? Is it about hardware (e.g. directional antennas) or software algorithm? My flight data is on board in my glider - right?, and from the 'receiver Flarm' I would get flight data transmitted from other gliders. What prohibits MY computer to do the needed calculations (course, speed, altitude) with regards to a potential collision? Isn't that what the existing apps for the cheap ADS-B-In are doing? I can see other aircrafts with their speed and direction, and as they get closer they change the color from blue to yellow to red and at one point alarm goes off. Why do you 'have to transmit' to receive this kind of a warning?


Thankfully we don't have FLARM receive only boxes... well not mainstream ones anyhow. To provide good defense across to the fleet we need lots of gliders equipped with transmitters. The sensible choice was for FLARM to focus on delivering boxes that did both and for the glider fleet to equip with both capabilities, and for the system to be relatively simple and work.... ADS-B set out to be relatively *complex* and is a bit of a mess because of that. FLARM is relatively simple and *should* just work, at least compared to ADS-B... Unfortunately the PowerFLARM rollout in the USA hit too several snags and was painful for a while, hopefully those issues are well behind us..

GA and ADS-B In in the USA is a model of what could happen by delivering low-cost receive only devices. We had lots of folks buying UAT or dual-link low cost receivers over the last half decade or so. With many of those GA aircraft not equipped with any ADS-B Out, so the effective coverage was not great and there has been a fair amount of confusion about what services a non-ADS-B Out aircraft receives that lulls some pilots into a false sense of security about what they are receiving.

FLARM choose to encrypt part of their data, which makes third parties doing stuff with the data difficult. That provides FLARM protection against competitors but also allows FLARM to ensure their systems are all compatible. Lots of the mess with ADS-B is trying to meet requirements/needs from so many potential users, and just trying to spec requirements which gets complex fast. FLARM has been able to avoid much of that by focusing on the glider market (and yes they do some GA in Europe and are doing more drone work now) and picking specific components/technology parts (FLARM actually makes some of the internal chips and firmware used on them and is very careful about the specific GPS technology they integrate with) and using in their systems.

Some of the questions above has been gone over before on r.a.s. and makes me think you have not flown with FLARM and not really compared it to an ADS-B based traffic system. The basic description of seeing traffic icons is kind of pointless, gliders are often surrounded closely by other gliders, nobody should be looking at the screen to see if they think they might run into another aircraft or relying on coarse 'traffic' audible warnings which rapidly become distracting, and need to be silenced. None of those other systems work well in the environment of other gliders and towplanes in close proximity, and they are simply not designed to.

At the most basic level FLARM is transmitting GPS data and looking at other FLARM units GPS data.... the antennas are not directional etc. It's all about software and focus on the glider community and making the traffic warnings usable/reducing false positives and providing the NMEA based data integration with glider traffic displays and glider flight computers... nothing those other systems can do. But to do that as well as FLARM does is non-trivial. Would it be nicer for PowerFLARM to be lower-cost, sure, but I also could not think of the effort needed to develop that technology and ecosystem and sell a similar system into such as small market (tens of thousands of FLARM units being a small market).

There are technical resources online about how FLARM works, findable with a Google search, but I suspect you would probably be better off flying a PowerFLARM equipped glider and see how FLARM works for you. If you have PowerFLARM users in your area then ask them, it would be fairly unusual for folks who have it not to recommend it. If nobody has it in your area then it's kinda academic unless you want to start a campaign for other folks to install it.

FLARM can be a great tool, but to provide technology assisted traffic awareness and collision avoidance owners/pilots might need to consider FLARM, Transponders, ADS-B Outf, ADS-B In and what works best for their specific threat scenarios.




  #29  
Old May 3rd 18, 01:04 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Notable Power Flarm saves - Is it 'worth it'?

Once again, the "Voice of Reason" steps up with a clear and concise explanation of the situation. Thanks, Darryl. And thanks for trying to explain the ins and outs of ADS-B. A daunting task, made more daunting by the inherent characteristics of a Federal Bureaucracy mandating a questionable technology. Not that I am totally against it- I am in the process of installing a Trig TT22. I may also have to request a new Airworthiness Certificate, moving my glider from Standard to Experimental so I can take advantage of 2020 compliant ADS-B for one sixth the price of a Standard Category installation. Makes a lot of sense, doesn't it?
  #30  
Old May 3rd 18, 02:23 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tom BravoMike
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Default Notable Power Flarm saves - Is it 'worth it'?

At the most basic level FLARM is transmitting GPS data and looking at other FLARM units GPS data.... the antennas are not directional etc. It's all about software and focus on the glider community and making the traffic warnings usable/reducing false positives and providing the NMEA based data integration with glider traffic displays and glider flight computers... nothing those other systems can do. (...)

Thank you for taking your time to clarify it to me. You are right, I have not flown in a FLARM equipped glider yet. But I find this your statement very important and revealing to me: "It's all about software and focus on the glider community". So the questions that bothers me all the time is: with the ADS-B becoming so common and mandatory for most aircraft, why should I have two transmitting systems on board (FLARM and a transponder - think about price and power usage). If it's all about software, why can't we have software using the ADS-B transmission (more universal, stronger ergo better visible) to provide us, glider pilots, with the information (visual/acoustic) equal to that produced by FLARM.

Let me make it clear: I am for the safety, visibility, awareness etc. I have a Microair Mode C Transponder and the ATD-300 Traffic Watch working beautifully, and I know it's not enough. I'm not against the idea behind FLARM and I bow down before the guys who invented and implemented it - but now it's the NextGen and ADS-B era - let's adapt to it! If a FLARM device appears on the market with the added ADS-B-Out feature, I'll be among the first to order, ready to invest in it whatever is necessary and justified.
 




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