Using Plasma Rope For Winch Tows

Hi Marc --

Well, granting that a wing-runner can sometimes be dispensed with, and
with good radio connections, I don't see any added safety a ground
observer at the launch end lends to the operation. Of course, this means
that the winch operator also must tow the line back out, and this makes
for a slow operation and one busy fellow, but I don't see why it
couldn't theoretically be done.

Now on car tow, you've got another situation. Here, I believe that
someone looking backward is occaisionally helpful and certainly makes
for more safe.

BJ

Marc Ramsey wrote:

"Jeff Goodenough" wrote...
Bruce Greeff wrote:

Only disadvantage is it needs an extra person on the winch and some
radio co-ordination.

As opposed to an extra person in an aircraft in front of you, you mean? :-)

Using aerotow you can launch with two people, one in the tow plane and one in
the glider. Would you do a winch launch with with only the operator and the
pilot?

Marc

Until recently, say 4 years ago, we used reverse pulley with a General
Motors truck pulling in the opposite direction. We may have been the
last club in the UK to use this system, I'm not sure. This had the
disadvantage that the driver didn't know what he was facing until the
glider was flying and he could see the belly view. Because the trucks
were getting old and the only way to operate was to go like blazes until
you knew what you had on the wire it was fairly common for tyro pilots
on the Ka8s to start with a stick fully or fairly forward.

When we got our winch we were all worried that it would be worse.
However, although it initially felt that you were going off a carrier
the initial "jerk" was far less unless the winch driver was a real ham
fisted i****t. This meant that even a Ka8 won't leap into the air unless
you are doing something really daft, a slight bit of forward stick is
all that is required. This is with a winch that is quite capable of
getting an ASH to leap off the deck if you really try. The controls in
most winches, unless totally abused, will give a rapid but controlled
acceleration without too much kick at the start.

Although we do aerotow I must admit that on most average days a winch
launch that will give you 1500 ft in 40secs for say 6 pounds is far
better sense than an aerotow to 2000 for say 30. Also flying a winch
launch is a damn sight easier than an aerotow. (In my humble and
inexperienced opinion).

Robin
--
Robin Birch

"Bob Johnson" wrote in message
...
Hi Marc --

Well, granting that a wing-runner can sometimes be dispensed with, and
with good radio connections, I don't see any added safety a ground
observer at the launch end lends to the operation. Of course, this means
that the winch operator also must tow the line back out, and this makes
for a slow operation and one busy fellow, but I don't see why it
couldn't theoretically be done.

Now on car tow, you've got another situation. Here, I believe that
someone looking backward is occaisionally helpful and certainly makes
for more safe.

BJ

I'm a bit uncomfortable with the idea of a wing runner-less winch takeoff.
CG hooks don't pull the glider straight so if the wing catches on something,
the resulting ground loop will be very violent. Then there's the problem of
properly clearing the airspace above and behind the glider before committing
to the launch.

On the other hand, using the winch driver to pull out the cable works fine
if the driver is amenable and the pull-out drag brake is reliable. The
worry here is that if the winch uses an automatic transmission, the engine
must be left running for the tranny to get lubrication. If the transmission
gets vibrated into gear......things get complicated. For this reason, it
makes sense to have a way to completely disengage the winch drum from the
transmission so the engine can be shut down during the cable pull-out. It's
safer and it saves a lot of fuel.

Bill Daniels

I would love to find a winch in California, but haven't
heard of any in this state. I'd love to learn this type
of launch (or auto-tow).

It seems it isn't as popular as aerotow for a lot of reasons.
Winches can't do retrieves/landouts, can't tow to 8000 ft
for sightseeing flights on calm days, require more runway
(we only have 3000ft) for altitude, are more difficult
to move to a new location (for a meet or gathering), and
winches mean there is a long rope falling out of the
sky somewhere after release. Of course the benefit is that
the complexity of a towplane and qualified pilot are
avoided.

At least these were some of the reasons discussed when
I asked about ground launch here at Avenal.

But one would think that auto-tow would be more popular.
One can certainly drive easily somewhere, and if the
thing can haul a trailer, it might tow up a glider?

Is there anywhere in California that does auto-tow or
winch? It would be a kick to try it. Also, who sells
equipment (like a hitch/pulley) for auto tow?

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
...
I would love to find a winch in California, but haven't
heard of any in this state. I'd love to learn this type
of launch (or auto-tow).

It seems it isn't as popular as aerotow for a lot of reasons.
Winches can't do retrieves/landouts, can't tow to 8000 ft
for sightseeing flights on calm days, require more runway
(we only have 3000ft) for altitude, are more difficult
to move to a new location (for a meet or gathering), and
winches mean there is a long rope falling out of the
sky somewhere after release. Of course the benefit is that
the complexity of a towplane and qualified pilot are
avoided.

At least these were some of the reasons discussed when
I asked about ground launch here at Avenal.

But one would think that auto-tow would be more popular.
One can certainly drive easily somewhere, and if the
thing can haul a trailer, it might tow up a glider?

Is there anywhere in California that does auto-tow or
winch? It would be a kick to try it. Also, who sells
equipment (like a hitch/pulley) for auto tow?


When I lived in SoCal in the 1960's a lot of folks auto towed regularly on
Mojave dry lakes. If you have lots of room, as on the dry lakes, auto tow
is great.

Bill Daniels

On the other hand, using the winch driver to pull out the cable works fine
if the driver is amenable and the pull-out drag brake is reliable. The
worry here is that if the winch uses an automatic transmission, the engine
must be left running for the tranny to get lubrication. If the transmission
gets vibrated into gear......things get complicated. For this reason, it
makes sense to have a way to completely disengage the winch drum from the
transmission so the engine can be shut down during the cable pull-out. It's
safer and it saves a lot of fuel.

Bill Daniels

The winch we use has a V8 engine driving through a three speed
automatic gearbox. There are two drums connected to the differential.
The drums have to be able to dissengage from the drive shafts or both
drums would turn at the same time - and we only launch one glider at a
time. Thus when pulling the cables out - both drums rotate freely and
the transmission does not turn. There are simple brakes on the drums
to prevent overun whilst pulling the cables out.

The winch driver can pull the cables back - but it is faster if there
is a dedicated person to do it. We use thus a winch driver, tractor
driver, signal man (we use a light to give signals to the winch) and a
wing runner. This can be reduced to a winch driver (who also pulls the
cable) and a wing runner who also gives the signals (wing signals as
opposed to the light - or with a handheld radio). It will be
unadvisable to elliminate the wing runner as he keeps a lookout for
other traffic which the pilot cannot see - and hooks up the glider
when the pilot has completed all his other pre-takoff checks. You
would not want a glider hooked up to a winch if the pilot is not ready
to release instantly.

Last Saturday - I got a 610m (1800ft)launch from a 4800ft cable in an
ASK 21. There was a 30km hour wind straight down the runway. What a
rush! 400m is what we normally achieve in the ASK 21 as it is a heavy
glider.

Clinton
LAK 12

Well, it does work without a wingrunner, supposed that you put the wingtip
on a chair or something like this. Breaks on 'til the slack is taken up, and
then a decent acceleration by the winch.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Bill Daniels" a écrit dans le message de
...

"Bob Johnson" wrote in message
...
Hi Marc --

Well, granting that a wing-runner can sometimes be dispensed with, and
with good radio connections, I don't see any added safety a ground
observer at the launch end lends to the operation. Of course, this means
that the winch operator also must tow the line back out, and this makes
for a slow operation and one busy fellow, but I don't see why it
couldn't theoretically be done.

Now on car tow, you've got another situation. Here, I believe that
someone looking backward is occaisionally helpful and certainly makes
for more safe.

BJ

I'm a bit uncomfortable with the idea of a wing runner-less winch takeoff.
CG hooks don't pull the glider straight so if the wing catches on
something,
the resulting ground loop will be very violent. Then there's the problem
of
properly clearing the airspace above and behind the glider before
committing
to the launch.

On the other hand, using the winch driver to pull out the cable works fine
if the driver is amenable and the pull-out drag brake is reliable. The
worry here is that if the winch uses an automatic transmission, the engine
must be left running for the tranny to get lubrication. If the
transmission
gets vibrated into gear......things get complicated. For this reason, it
makes sense to have a way to completely disengage the winch drum from the
transmission so the engine can be shut down during the cable pull-out.
It's
safer and it saves a lot of fuel.

Bill Daniels

On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 14:46:22 UTC, Ray Lovinggood
wrote:

: The only instrument, I
: think (hey, this was from 1983 till 1986), was a tach
: and maybe a engine coolant temperature gauge. I think
: they operated mainly by sight and sound.

When I was a winch instructor at a club in the southwest of England I
always taught new drivers to do it by the appearance of the glider and
the bow in the cable alone. Of necessity, because there were no engine
gauges at all, but I firmly believe it's the only way to do it well.
It's also very helpful, I think, if winch drivers are also current
glider pilots.

Ian
--

Don't know about leaving a chair on the airfield, but an orange traffic cone
perhaps, and keep the grass mowed short. Hopefully, there's enough interest
so that it doesn't come to this in the first place.

Frank Whiteley

"Bert Willing" wrote in
message ...
Well, it does work without a wingrunner, supposed that you put the wingtip
on a chair or something like this. Breaks on 'til the slack is taken up,
and
then a decent acceleration by the winch.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Bill Daniels" a écrit dans le message de
...

"Bob Johnson" wrote in message
...
Hi Marc --

Well, granting that a wing-runner can sometimes be dispensed with, and
with good radio connections, I don't see any added safety a ground
observer at the launch end lends to the operation. Of course, this
means
that the winch operator also must tow the line back out, and this
makes
for a slow operation and one busy fellow, but I don't see why it
couldn't theoretically be done.

Now on car tow, you've got another situation. Here, I believe that
someone looking backward is occaisionally helpful and certainly makes
for more safe.

BJ

I'm a bit uncomfortable with the idea of a wing runner-less winch
takeoff.
CG hooks don't pull the glider straight so if the wing catches on
something,
the resulting ground loop will be very violent. Then there's the
problem
of
properly clearing the airspace above and behind the glider before
committing
to the launch.

On the other hand, using the winch driver to pull out the cable works
fine
if the driver is amenable and the pull-out drag brake is reliable. The
worry here is that if the winch uses an automatic transmission, the
engine
must be left running for the tranny to get lubrication. If the
transmission
gets vibrated into gear......things get complicated. For this reason,
it
makes sense to have a way to completely disengage the winch drum from
the
transmission so the engine can be shut down during the cable pull-out.
It's
safer and it saves a lot of fuel.

Bill Daniels

I was shown a gadget just for this sort of thing made of PVC pipe. It was
essentially a tripod with a 2 meter horizontal pipe along which the wing
would slide as the glider started its roll. It was intended for airtow but
the thing would work with a winch.

I agree with Frank. I hope it doesn't come to this.

Returning to the USA situation with winch launch for a moment, whenever a
group tries a once-a-year winch party with 20 or so untrained people, the
result looks a lot like a Chinese fire drill. Since this is the usual
situation in the US, there is the widespread opinion that winch launching is
a confused, labor intensive affair.

However, a group of experienced winch people with polished procedures can
make it look as easy as air tow. It sure is a lot quieter, cleaner and more
pleasant than the noisy, dusty environment in the vicinity of a tug.

Bill Daniels

"F.L. Whiteley" wrote in message
...
Don't know about leaving a chair on the airfield, but an orange traffic
cone
perhaps, and keep the grass mowed short. Hopefully, there's enough
interest
so that it doesn't come to this in the first place.

Frank Whiteley

"Bert Willing" wrote in
message ...
Well, it does work without a wingrunner, supposed that you put the
wingtip
on a chair or something like this. Breaks on 'til the slack is taken up,
and
then a decent acceleration by the winch.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"