Using Plasma Rope For Winch Tows

"Bill Daniels" s comments read:

I was shown a gadget just for this sort of thing made of PVC pipe. It was
essentially a tripod with a 2 meter horizontal pipe along which the wing
would slide as the glider started its roll. It was intended for airtow but
the thing would work with a winch.

Surely this situation normally occurs when retrieving as well as days
when the operation is normally closed. I've heard a tale about a coke
can and good blast of prop wash being used to get the wind up. Sounds
like asking for trouble ...

--
Tim - ASW20CL "20"

In article , Bill Daniels
writes

I agree with Frank. I hope it doesn't come to this.

Returning to the USA situation with winch launch for a moment, whenever a
group tries a once-a-year winch party with 20 or so untrained people, the
result looks a lot like a Chinese fire drill. Since this is the usual
situation in the US, there is the widespread opinion that winch launching is
a confused, labor intensive affair.

However, a group of experienced winch people with polished procedures can
make it look as easy as air tow. It sure is a lot quieter, cleaner and more
pleasant than the noisy, dusty environment in the vicinity of a tug.

Bill Daniels
It can also be very efficient. The Midland Gliding Club which operates
from a hill top site in Shropshire, England, uses a single drum winch
to launch and a lower powered winch to retrieve the cable. The launch
rate can be phenomenal!

--
Mike Lindsay

yeee-hah (cable-please-don't-break), yeee-hah
J.

"OscarCVox" wrote in message
...
Gliders susceptable to this often have features in common.
Light weight
High mounted wings
nose wheel or skid
The whole thing made worse by inexpert winch drivers in a powerfull winch
used
to launching heavy 2 seaters

The worst experience I have ever had was in one of those PW5 things. It
rotated
until the wheel on the tail hit the ground hard then took off like a scalded
cat. With full forward stick I was about 200ft before I managed to resume
control. Scary.
With a nose wheel or skid they rock back on the all out signal presenting
the
wings at a large angle of attack before the elevator has a chance to become
effective.

Mike Lindsay wrote:

It can also be very efficient. The Midland Gliding Club which operates
from a hill top site in Shropshire, England, uses a single drum winch
to launch and a lower powered winch to retrieve the cable. The launch
rate can be phenomenal!


How does the retrieve work? I.e. is that not a way of moving
the problem to how to get back the retrieve cable, or does
it remain tied to the main cable? In this case doesn'it
slow down and pull back the main cable?

OscarCVox wrote:

Gliders susceptable to this often have features in common.
Light weight
High mounted wings
nose wheel or skid
The whole thing made worse by inexpert winch drivers in a powerfull winch used
to launching heavy 2 seaters

The worst experience I have ever had was in one of those PW5 things. It rotated
until the wheel on the tail hit the ground hard then took off like a scalded
cat. With full forward stick I was about 200ft before I managed to resume
control. Scary.
With a nose wheel or skid they rock back on the all out signal presenting the
wings at a large angle of attack before the elevator has a chance to become
effective.

I think the most important factors in the cas of the PW5 are the
high position of the tail skid, allowing for a high pitchup before
leaving the ground, and a to aft position of the CG hook. The ASK23
is also a light weight glider with high mounted wings and a nose
wheel, but it doesn't exhibit this behavior.

The lighter Spectra doesn't sag nearly as much as steel so the pull vector
is more nearly aligned with the flight path. The potential height gain at
release is more due to the angle that Spectra pulls on the glider.

The Van Gelder? You bet. That's the reference winch design. Somebody want
to link us to some detailed pictures of the Van Gelder?

Bill Daniels

"Bob Johnson" wrote in message
...
Robert --

There's only about a 100 lb reduction in line weight at release,
assuming you're currently using 5mm steel, so I wouldn't expect a
dramatic height gain.

Hoo boy, a 6 drum Diesel Monster Van Gelder -- now THAT'S a winch!!

Robert Johnson 8')


Robert John wrote:

At Dunstable (London Gliding Club - UK) we have 4 tugs
(typically 2 operating unless it's really busy) and
a 6 drum diesel Munster Van Gelder winch. The launch
rates with a slick ground crew can be extremely good.
30 secs to launch, another 30secs to reel in the cable,
then hook up the next one and go.

It's quick, quiet and cheap (a quarter the cost of
a typical tug launch).

Our only bugbear is that the field is fairly short
so we rarely see more than 1200 feet from a winch launch,
sometimes as little as 800 (flat calm on one of the
shorter runs). 1500'+ would make winching the preferred
method of launch for most XC flights (standard aerotow
is 2000ft - we Brits are used to thermalling up from
heights most Americans would regard as circuit height!).


Perhaps we should experiment with Plasma rope?

The winch is slightly less labour-intensive than the
tug in that the hook-on and control crew is the same
for both but you only need one winch driver and he
is utilised as soon as he is needed - you don't need
to wait for him to return to earth and taxi into position
after a launch. Someone from the launch point goes
to the winch with a tractor and 6-hook trailer before
the last cable is used so as to be ready to bring the
cables back to the launch point.

Rob John

At 08:24 14 August 2003, Mike Lindsay wrote:
In article , Bill Daniels
writes

I agree with Frank. I hope it doesn't come to this.

Returning to the USA situation with winch launch for
a moment, whenever a
group tries a once-a-year winch party with 20 or so
untrained people, the
result looks a lot like a Chinese fire drill. Since
this is the usual
situation in the US, there is the widespread opinion
that winch launching is
a confused, labor intensive affair.

However, a group of experienced winch people with polished
procedures can
make it look as easy as air tow. It sure is a lot
quieter, cleaner and more
pleasant than the noisy, dusty environment in the vicinity
of a tug.

Bill Daniels
It can also be very efficient. The Midland Gliding
Club which operates
from a hill top site in Shropshire, England, uses a
single drum winch
to launch and a lower powered winch to retrieve the
cable. The launch
rate can be phenomenal!

--
Mike Lindsay

The main cable and the retrieve cable are both shackled to a "triangle", the
rope trace to the glider is attached to the third corner. No parachute is
used, the whole thing drops straight down when released.

This system can only be used when it is safe and operationally convenient
for the cable, triangle and retrieve cable to drop straight down when
released, without risk of damage to people or property, and without damaging
itself.

If you go to the on-line "Gliding Magazine" photo section, page 4, 4/3/2003
http://www.glidingmagazine.com/PhotoGallery.asp?Page=4 you will see 3 photos
I posted of a K21 being launched at the Mynd.

In the first photo the triangle is about to leave the ground, the retrieve
cable is on the ground in the right foreground.

In the second photo the triangle is the black object at the end of the rope
trace, the wire cable and retrieve cable cannot be seen. The winch is just
below the skyline right center well clear of the trees.

The third photo was in fact taken first, it shows the glider ready to
launch.
The first part of the trace is the weak link unit, a short wire trace in
coloured (black) hose, you can see a blue link unit (used for most single
seaters) under the wing tip.

Since we never launch without the retrieve wire attached, it is difficult to
know if we are losing height. However, we are saving the drag of the chute
used in most other systems. We are well pleased with the height we get.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.) - member of Midland G.C.
Remove "ic" to reply.


"Robert Ehrlich" wrote in message
...


Mike Lindsay wrote:

It can also be very efficient. The Midland Gliding Club which operates
from a hill top site in Shropshire, England, uses a single drum winch
to launch and a lower powered winch to retrieve the cable. The launch
rate can be phenomenal!


How does the retrieve work? I.e. is that not a way of moving
the problem to how to get back the retrieve cable, or does
it remain tied to the main cable? In this case doesn'it
slow down and pull back the main cable?

!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"
html
I don't know about detailed --
pA HREF="http://www.621vgs.co.uk/works.htm"http://www.621vgs.co.uk/works.htm/A
pBill Daniels wrote:
blockquote TYPE=CITEThe lighter Spectra doesn't sag nearly as much as
steel so the pull vector
bris more nearly aligned with the flight path.  The potential height
gain at
brrelease is more due to the angle that Spectra pulls on the glider.
pThe Van Gelder? You bet.  That's the reference winch design. 
Somebody want
brto link us to some detailed pictures of the Van Gelder?
pBill Daniels
p"Bob Johnson" wrote in message
bra "news:3F /a...
br Robert --
br
br There's only about a 100 lb reduction in line weight at release,
br assuming you're currently using 5mm steel, so I wouldn't expect a
br dramatic height gain.
br
br Hoo boy, a 6 drum Diesel Monster Van Gelder -- now THAT'S a winch!!
br
br Robert Johnson 8')
br
br
br Robert John wrote:
br
br At Dunstable (London Gliding Club - UK) we have 4 tugs
br (typically 2 operating unless it's really busy) and
br a 6 drum diesel Munster Van Gelder winch.  The launch
br rates with a slick ground crew can be extremely good.
br   30 secs to launch, another 30secs to reel in the cable,
br then hook up the next one and go.
br
br It's quick, quiet and cheap (a quarter the cost of
br a typical tug launch).
br
br Our only bugbear is that the field is fairly short
br so we rarely see more than 1200 feet from a winch launch,
br sometimes as little as 800 (flat calm on one of the
br shorter runs).  1500'+ would make winching the preferred
br method of launch for most XC flights (standard aerotow
br is 2000ft - we Brits are used to thermalling up from
br heights most Americans would regard as circuit height!).
br
br
br Perhaps we should experiment with Plasma rope?
br
br The winch is slightly less labour-intensive than the
br tug in that the hook-on and control crew is the same
br for both but you only need one winch driver and he
br is utilised as soon as he is needed - you don't need
br to wait for him to return to earth and taxi into position
br after a launch.   Someone from the launch point goes
br to the winch with a tractor and 6-hook trailer before
br the last cable is used so as to be ready to bring the
br cables back to the launch point.
br
br Rob John
br
br At 08:24 14 August 2003, Mike Lindsay wrote:
br In article , Bill Daniels
br writes
br
br I agree with Frank.  I hope it doesn't come to this.
br
br Returning to the USA situation with winch launch for
br a moment, whenever a
br group tries a once-a-year winch party with 20 or so
br untrained people, the
br result looks a lot like a Chinese fire drill.  Since
br this is the usual
br situation in the US, there is the widespread opinion
br that winch launching is
br a confused, labor intensive affair.
br
br However, a group of experienced winch people with polished
br procedures can
br make it look as easy as air tow.  It sure is a lot
br quieter, cleaner and more
br pleasant than the noisy, dusty environment in the vicinity
br of a tug.
br
br Bill Daniels
br It can also be very efficient. The Midland Gliding
br Club which operates
br from a hill top site in Shropshire, England, uses a
br single drum winch
br to launch and a lower powered winch to retrieve the
br cable. The launch
br rate can be phenomenal!
br
br --
br Mike Lindsay
br /blockquote
/html

The Van Gelder was a superb winch when it first arrived in the U.K., but the reference winch today is the Skylaunch http://www.skylaunchuk.com/ . I have done many launches in solo gliders and in two-seaters by both winches, and I prefer the Skylaunch. I have no commercial interest in that company.

The reference you gave is to 621VGS, which is an Air Training Corps squadron, and therefore part of the Royal Air Force. Their equipment is bought and maintained by the taxpayer, and their economics are rather different from the civilian clubs.

Note that the Van Gelder needs a substantial vehicle to tow it, the Skylaunch can be towed on the road by any reasonable SUV. The Midland Gliding Club have a Skylaunch which is towed round our rough airfield by a Range Rover.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.
"Bob Johnson" wrote in message
...

I don't know about detailed --
http://www.621vgs.co.uk/works.htm

Bill Daniels wrote:

The lighter Spectra doesn't sag nearly as much as steel so the pull vector
is more nearly aligned with the flight path. The potential height gain at
release is more due to the angle that Spectra pulls on the glider.
The Van Gelder? You bet. That's the reference winch design. Somebody want
to link us to some detailed pictures of the Van Gelder?

Bill Daniels

"Bob Johnson" wrote in message ...
Robert --

There's only about a 100 lb reduction in line weight at release,
assuming you're currently using 5mm steel, so I wouldn't expect a
dramatic height gain.

Hoo boy, a 6 drum Diesel Monster Van Gelder -- now THAT'S a winch!!

Robert Johnson 8')


Robert John wrote:

At Dunstable (London Gliding Club - UK) we have 4 tugs
(typically 2 operating unless it's really busy) and
a 6 drum diesel Munster Van Gelder winch. The launch
rates with a slick ground crew can be extremely good.
30 secs to launch, another 30secs to reel in the cable,
then hook up the next one and go.

It's quick, quiet and cheap (a quarter the cost of
a typical tug launch).

Our only bugbear is that the field is fairly short
so we rarely see more than 1200 feet from a winch launch,
sometimes as little as 800 (flat calm on one of the
shorter runs). 1500'+ would make winching the preferred
method of launch for most XC flights (standard aerotow
is 2000ft - we Brits are used to thermalling up from
heights most Americans would regard as circuit height!).


Perhaps we should experiment with Plasma rope?

The winch is slightly less labour-intensive than the
tug in that the hook-on and control crew is the same
for both but you only need one winch driver and he
is utilised as soon as he is needed - you don't need
to wait for him to return to earth and taxi into position
after a launch. Someone from the launch point goes
to the winch with a tractor and 6-hook trailer before
the last cable is used so as to be ready to bring the
cables back to the launch point.

Rob John

"W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.)." wrote in message ...
The Van Gelder was a superb winch when it first arrived in the U.K., but the reference winch today is the Skylaunch http://www.skylaunchuk.com/ . I have done many launches in solo gliders and in two-seaters by both winches, and I prefer the Skylaunch. I have no commercial interest in that company.

The reference you gave is to 621VGS, which is an Air Training Corps squadron, and therefore part of the Royal Air Force. Their equipment is bought and maintained by the taxpayer, and their economics are rather different from the civilian clubs.

Note that the Van Gelder needs a substantial vehicle to tow it, the Skylaunch can be towed on the road by any reasonable SUV. The Midland Gliding Club have a Skylaunch which is towed round our rough airfield by a Range Rover.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.

Bill, would you expand on the reasons for your preference for the Skylaunch winch?

Aren't most of the Van Gelder winches mounted on trucks so the towing issue is moot?

Bill Daniels